The big boatyard in the sky?

[robert sailor]

I guess the only good news is that older boats were smaller than many buyers want these days, in other words, not that many 40 plus sizes. These should be easier to get rid of. Many of the newer boats are designed with a limited lifespan so I imagine that by the time they are worn out we will have developed systems to get rid of them.

[roberthowell]

had a dumpster delivered and filled it up off to the landfill

[Garethk]

Okay, it's about time the authorities got serious with this issue. As many have stated, All these old derelict boats hogging up mooring areas with no intention of being put back into service will lead to only one solution, That is we boat owners will pay a disposal bond of a sizeable amount say $200 per foot of vessel length.

The governing body for each state holds this bond money and when the vessel is sold you get it back. the next registered owner then pays the bond again to have the vessel registered. If you fail to keep the boat registered and in a sea going capacity you will forfeit the bond and the boat can then be removed, dismantled and disposed of with no cost to the community.

With the bond money held in interest earning accounts this money could be used to pay for inspectors out on the water to make sure this can happen.

I myself would gladly pay for such a scheme if it meant usable anchorages, safer boats and a much better plan for the environment.

It will just mean that when you purchase a boat you do so knowing that it will have a use by date and if maintained properly, the bond money shouldn't come out of your pocket .

I am currently in the process of putting this suggestion to the local authorities here in Australia and hope other countries will adopt a similar plan

[dwedeking2]

Wow. A $7k tax on a $10k boat I just bought (with your scheme) to refit as a long term project / dream. Just about strangles my dreams in infancy, even though my boat is functional, has liability insurance and is clean. So nice of you to take that away or at least force me to add a large chunk of time to my project.

This would guarantee none of the marginal boats (like mine) would ever be recovered and used again.

[cjsfsm]

There is a 50ft Formosa left in storage for salvage at my yard. In cases like this the Marina allows people to salvage anything from the boat for a small fee. The ballast (if lead) is sold to a local vendor for resale (lead is expensive). Following that the Marina hires a scrap company who will cut up the remains for a fee. It is a loosing endeavor for the Marina. These are boats left in the yard by folks who no longer care and stop paying storage fees. Recovery of loss to the Marina is not a viable option because of the cost of legal representation. This year the Marina has had to dispose of about 6 such boats albeit all the others were smaller.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by roberthowell

could not find anyone to buy my 74 Pearson 30 partly because no motor so with a small crew we cut the boat up in the parking lot and let the thieves take the rudder i was going to try and sell and got 200 for the lead keel still have the 30ft mast ,drive shaft and exhaust manifold for the yanmar 2gm that i had made in stainless.

OMG...I had a 1974 Pearson 30...loved it! Such a great boat. Sold it just over a year ago. But it was in pretty good shape, and loaded with gear, sail away condition. And I got less than I thought I would get. The new owner has spruced her up even more...still kept locally.

I'm always sad to see these on ebay selling for tens of dollars.

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by Garethk

Okay, it's about time the authorities got serious with this issue. As many have stated, All these old derelict boats hogging up mooring areas with no intention of being put back into service will lead to only one solution, That is we boat owners will pay a disposal bond of a sizeable amount say $200 per foot of vessel length.

The governing body for each state holds this bond money and when the vessel is sold you get it back. the next registered owner then pays the bond again to have the vessel registered. If you fail to keep the boat registered and in a sea going capacity you will forfeit the bond and the boat can then be removed, dismantled and disposed of with no cost to the community.

With the bond money held in interest earning accounts this money could be used to pay for inspectors out on the water to make sure this can happen.

I myself would gladly pay for such a scheme if it meant usable anchorages, safer boats and a much better plan for the environment.

It will just mean that when you purchase a boat you do so knowing that it will have a use by date and if maintained properly, the bond money shouldn't come out of your pocket .

I am currently in the process of putting this suggestion to the local authorities here in Australia and hope other countries will adopt a similar plan

WTF is wrong with you?

Oh, I get it. You work for the government.

[SailingFan]

Originally Posted by Garethk

Okay, it's about time the authorities got serious with this issue. As many have stated, All these old derelict boats hogging up mooring areas with no intention of being put back into service will lead to only one solution, That is we boat owners will pay a disposal bond of a sizeable amount say $200 per foot of vessel length.

The governing body for each state holds this bond money and when the vessel is sold you get it back. the next registered owner then pays the bond again to have the vessel registered. If you fail to keep the boat registered and in a sea going capacity you will forfeit the bond and the boat can then be removed, dismantled and disposed of with no cost to the community.

With the bond money held in interest earning accounts this money could be used to pay for inspectors out on the water to make sure this can happen.

I myself would gladly pay for such a scheme if it meant usable anchorages, safer boats and a much better plan for the environment.

It will just mean that when you purchase a boat you do so knowing that it will have a use by date and if maintained properly, the bond money shouldn't come out of your pocket .

I am currently in the process of putting this suggestion to the local authorities here in Australia and hope other countries will adopt a similar plan

This is insane! Folks would just let the older boats sit until they sank, because they would be less affected to simply purchase a new boat rather than hassle with the old one. The landfills and mooring areas (plus the out of the way areas that will become boat graveyards for midnight dumpers) will be congested with abandoned boats because there will no longer be a market for them.

To add to that, boats like mine, that cost less than 3K at 27 foot would have had a tax of $5,400 added to purchase price for me! That would make the vessel, in extensive need of repair but repairable, into a direlect in one of those areas rather than have someone like myself come and restore her to her prior usefulness. This does not help the environment, it pollutes it!

Who here would pay $8,400 USD PLUS an 8% sales tax for a 1978 Hunter 27 with mast step rot and leaky windows, no real interior (exposed hull sides internally, though parts of the foam are still stuck here and there), a removed head, a non-running engine, needed bottom scraping, fairing, and painting, and no running rigging in place? The condition of the vessel has improved substantially since my purchase, but this level of taxation is what most Americans I would associate with would call ludicrous, even burdensome and I don't think it could pass here. The boats would be placed out of reach of the less affluent to be sure!

It severely would damage the cruising community globally, as well. You go ahead and voluntarily offer your fee to your government, but keep your hands off my money. There are laws here to protect us from your sort. One nice thing about us is that we have representation (who will not risk getting recalled in a recall election) who will not pass such lunacy onto such a large segment of American society, regardless of what someone in another country may want for their citizens (especially since those citizens are not asking for it either!).

[first wind]

Originally Posted by Siberianhusky

Where I live it will cost you 95$ a ton to dispose of anything non-recycleable, all the metals can be sold for scrap. Cut up the hull and truck it to the dump.
For a 10 ton boat call half of it recycleable - leaves you with 5 tons to dispose of, so just under 500$ tipping fees then you get some back in sold scrap metal.
This is DIY of course and in my area. Different placs have different tipping fees at the dump.
Add in a pile of sawsall blades or a new bar and couple chains for a chainsaw....

in other words, it's very costly. scrap metal prices are very low, right now. the most valuable meal on the boat would be the lead keel but, even that is worth much less, now. on the other hand, they aren't giving away sawzall blades. those things are pricey and i'd think it would take a pretty good handful to cut up a boat of any size.

you might get some money out of selling hardware and stuff but, unless you have self tailing wenches, it's going to be harder to move a lot of it than one might think. bacon's has more non-self tailing wenches sitting around for sale that i think they will ever be able to move.

of course, if anyone is cutting up an almand 31 and has a few opening portholes they need to get rid of, i will take one of those. unfortunately, like anyone else looking to buy used sailing gear, i'm not looking to pay a lot for it.

and that's the thing. you don't get a lot for used sailboat parts. people who buy that stuff used don't tend to have a lot of money. those with money buy new. as an example, i really am looking for the above porthole (in this month's GOB there is an article about removing portholes and filling in the holes...and they are the very portholes i am seeking! oh the cruel irony). i bought the other seven portholes (i need an eighth to match) for $100 for the lot. some of them need new screens. other than that, they are perfect. they are out of a scrapped almand 31 that had been abandoned at the marina.

portholes are an expensive item but, when you cut up the boat, finding someone that needs or wants them is another story.

i have been locating used boat parts from craigslist for the last few years and a lot of them come from scrapped out boats. what i have seen is that, as a rule, people scrapping out unwanted boats put in a lot of time, sneak the cut up fiberglass to construction dumpsters and other unwatched dumpsters or pay a good bit to take the fiberglass to the local landfill. and, other than the lead keel, they recoup very little from anything else on the boat.

[Garethk]

That is exactly my point!! A 50ft banger purchased for 10K will never be brought back to it's former glory, maybe a handful, but the majority will end up lying on the bank half sunk with the owners walking away from it, then the rest of us foot the bill through increased license fees to remove said junk!!

I know there is no easy solution to this ever increasing problem but we must start to address this situation NOW.

I think some have missed the point, you get your bond money back when you on sell so long as the boat is keep in a usable state.

[SailingFan]

Originally Posted by Garethk

That is exactly my point!! A 50ft banger purchased for 10K will never be brought back to it's former glory, maybe a handful, but the majority will end up lying on the bank half sunk with the owners walking away from it, then the rest of us foot the bill through increased license fees to remove said junk!!

I know there is no easy solution to this ever increasing problem but we must start to address this situation NOW.

I think some have missed the point, you get your bond money back when you on sell so long as the boat is keep in a usable state.

GarethK, I cannot speak for others here, but my point is that the new purchaser has to pay a tax (that is what it is, even if it is refundable) that at your rates would be onerous relative to the value of a vessel, making far more vessels of marginal value entirely useless, and it makes people who have those vessels seek other means than sale to dispose of them, likely abandonment would INCREASE rather than decrease. It would also prevent those vessels from having as much salvage value, decreasing the drive to retrieve them by those so inclined.

It just is not a well thought out plan, considering the peripheral damage such a tax would have. Not to mention that a TON of folks who want to get started would not be financially able to do so, even if they did have the money to purchase a vessel that they could afford to refurbish otherwise.

In the spirit of offering another option to the one I dislike, a better option could be to offer some sort of compensation for the submission of said vessels to proper authorities with a tax credit of some sort for the release of the properly titled vessel (to prevent theft issues), at least there would be a motive to get them to the authorities for disposal rather than creating an unofficial (and uncharted) hazard to navigation/reef that leaked fuels into the ocean.

[SailingFan]

By the way, how do we define "usable condition?"

Does the vessel have to float with no bilge pump action? Must it be sailing condition? Can there be interior components missing or pulled? Does all the inside and hull device inventory have to function correctly? How many cruisers today can say that ALL these conditions are met 24/7 on a boat they own? Maybe a third of them? Maybe less?

So when does the international boat police force board your vessel to ensure you are keeping the GPS properly working? What authority for action will they have? Who is going to tell us which authority reigns supreme in these activities? Do foreign powers need yet another reason to board us?

What if you sell in another country? What if the vessel strikes a reef and is lost? Do you also lose your bond? What if it is stolen? What if it burns? Storms? Accidents at sea?

[first wind]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

I guess the only good news is that older boats were smaller than many buyers want these days, in other words, not that many 40 plus sizes. These should be easier to get rid of. Many of the newer boats are designed with a limited lifespan so I imagine that by the time they are worn out we will have developed systems to get rid of them.

i doubt it. we still haven't figured out a way to safely dispose of all the toxic nuclear waste created through the generation of 'environmentally friendly' electricity. and that's been a problem longer than derelict fiberglass boats.

this issue really does illustrate the problem with our wide spread use of plastics for everything. it's a far bigger problem than a lot of other issues that make the environmental debates on a more regular basis. yet, it's a problem that we really could take effective action on more readily than some other issues that get a lot more attention.

fiberglass boats are not really intended to be disposable items, yet, the disposal of their plastic hulls is becoming an issue. you just have to ask yourself why we keep using plastic to make things that are intended to be thrown away. sure, a plastic bottle, by itself, isn't a big deal compared to a few thousand pounds of hull but, there are a boat load more plastic bottles out there than there are derelict boats. that's not including all the plastic bags, product packaging, and plastic dinnerware. plastic car parts, plastic toys, plastic dishes, plastic furniture...you name it and we make it out of plastic and it eventually ends up in the dumpster, along the roadside, beside trails at national parks, or floating in the bay.

and it's a real issue.

i mean, there are people out there who swear by human caused global warming...oops. not called that anymore because we had some cold winters...sorry....climate change...that way the sky is falling no matter what the thermometer reads. anyhow, these people go out and buy electric cars; so proud that they are fighting global warming....er climate change.

the funny part is that electricity isn't free and most of it is generated by burning coal and the stuff that is generated with nuclear creates toxic waste we don't know how to deal with. heck, i recently read that there are some scientists saying that the growing use of solar panels is helping to raise the global temperatures. and wind generators kill loads of eagles and stuff...

anyway, they drive their electric cars and then they buy tons of stuff that's individually packaged for convenience; which creates tons of extra plastic garbage. it's so much easier giving your brat an individually packaged juice, with his or her lunch, than it is to fill and wash a thermos. and the real kicker is when you see these people toss trash out of one of these 'environmentally friendly', 'green' cars as they drive on down the road.

we do love our Hippocrates....i mean hypocrisy. most people don't even know who Hippocrates was. heck. so many people can't even name the vice president or their own senator. you can't expect them to know who Hippocrates was.

but, we do love our hypocrisy. that, we do. heck, it's the modern way of the western world; hypocrisy.

we love to defend our liberty by getting the government to make as many of our life choices for us as we can.

we defend freedom of speech as long as you don't say anything i don't like.

we believe in creating fairness by taking the pay from the person who earned it and giving it to someone who didn't do anything to get it.

we love democracy then riot if our candidate loses the election.

so much lovely hypocrisy in our society.

but, i digress. back to the disposal of plastic. i guess people really don't want to deal with the 800 pound gorilla in the room, if it impacts their habits. plus, if you buy an electric car, you can look like you are doing something while not actually doing anything. and it's really all just about appearances, anyway, right?


i would like to point out that this is the most smiley faces i have ever used in one post. lol. it was kind of fun.

[first wind]

Originally Posted by SailingFan

This is insane! Folks would just let the older boats sit until they sank, because they would be less affected to simply purchase a new boat rather than hassle with the old one. The landfills and mooring areas (plus the out of the way areas that will become boat graveyards for midnight dumpers) will be congested with abandoned boats because there will no longer be a market for them.

To add to that, boats like mine, that cost less than 3K at 27 foot would have had a tax of $5,400 added to purchase price for me! That would make the vessel, in extensive need of repair but repairable, into a direlect in one of those areas rather than have someone like myself come and restore her to her prior usefulness. This does not help the environment, it pollutes it!

Who here would pay $8,400 USD PLUS an 8% sales tax for a 1978 Hunter 27 with mast step rot and leaky windows, no real interior (exposed hull sides internally, though parts of the foam are still stuck here and there), a removed head, a non-running engine, needed bottom scraping, fairing, and painting, and no running rigging in place? The condition of the vessel has improved substantially since my purchase, but this level of taxation is what most Americans I would associate with would call ludicrous, even burdensome and I don't think it could pass here. The boats would be placed out of reach of the less affluent to be sure!

It severely would damage the cruising community globally, as well. You go ahead and voluntarily offer your fee to your government, but keep your hands off my money. There are laws here to protect us from your sort. One nice thing about us is that we have representation (who will not risk getting recalled in a recall election) who will not pass such lunacy onto such a large segment of American society, regardless of what someone in another country may want for their citizens (especially since those citizens are not asking for it either!).

i agree, except to say that i am not so sure some of our supposed public servants would love this kind of regulation. thankfully, one such is leaving soon. you are aware of how much of the cost of fuel and electricity is taxation or the result of 'environmental' regulation?

[first wind]

Originally Posted by Garethk

That is exactly my point!! A 50ft banger purchased for 10K will never be brought back to it's former glory, maybe a handful, but the majority will end up lying on the bank half sunk with the owners walking away from it, then the rest of us foot the bill through increased license fees to remove said junk!!

I know there is no easy solution to this ever increasing problem but we must start to address this situation NOW.

I think some have missed the point, you get your bond money back when you on sell so long as the boat is keep in a usable state.

i think you are the one that has missed the point.

that's assuming you have that kind of extra money laying around to begin with. i'd say the above example of the 27 foot hunter points this out pretty clearly. because there is no crazy bond amount added to the price of boats, yet, there is one less derelict to worry about. he bought it for an affordable price and is fixing it. if you tacked on a bunch of extra bond money (which would end up becoming a permanent tax, in the end. that's how government works) he never could have bought that boat and it would have ended up being garbage that needed dealt with. my boat is the same...although i can't say it was in as bad a shape as his, thankfully. it's enough of a job as it is, on a tight income. but, i also got it for $300. i talked them down from the $500 asking price. i never could have afforded to pay $5700 for it and then fixed it up.

what if you never sell the boat? then you never get the bond money back. maybe you die and your kids sell it. sure, they get an additional $5400 they didn't spend but, you ended up paying $5700 for a $300 boat that you then had to turn around and invest a few thousand more dollars and lots of work to fix up.

as he said, only the rich could afford boats. there would really be no used boat market. who is going to shell out a sum equal to or greater than the value of a boat that will need work? no one.