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Old 16-01-2017, 16:54   #91
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Re: Tesla Electric Yacht unveiled...

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Originally Posted by SV DestinyAscen View Post
I love perpetual motion boats. You put one in the water and let it go around the world, and by the 1000x it circles it'll have gained so much excess energy it'll go faster than light and turn back time so Louie lane didn't die.
Yeah, most people won't believe this .... but for the few that will .... (here goes!) ...

The "International Intergovernmental Department Improving Oceanic Transport" was actually testing these boats in secret in Asian waters. It was predicted that so much free power would be generated to the engines, that the boats would move through the water so fast, that it was decided that the high speed testing could only occur during periods of strong tectonic plate movement and seismic activity. This was proven when these tests caused the Asian and Japan Tsumami's. IIDIOT has since improved the hydrodynamics of the test vessels. This is proven in that recent Tsunamis have been smaller - especially the recent one in New Zealand, which despite being announced on the web, almost never happened. That's progress!.
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Old 16-01-2017, 16:56   #92
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Re: Tesla Electric Yacht unveiled...

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I think the reason people keep showing up hopeing electric can be used on boats is they see the huge gains in cars, and home systems, and simply have no idea how that translates to the demands of a boat. Because electricity pretty much happens in the background there is no real internal quantity that people ascribe to it.
...
Excellent summary - that should be made a "sticky" somewhere!

(I've bookmarked it to point the next dreamer to )
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Old 16-01-2017, 16:58   #93
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Re: Tesla Electric Yacht unveiled...

WTF?

Whatever you have been smoking, let us in on the substance you are using.

I want to be that smart!!!


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Old 16-01-2017, 17:27   #94
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Re: Tesla Electric Yacht unveiled...

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Yep, that's the idea. If we can demonstrate enough interest, someone might show up with the key to make it happen at an affordable price
public interest and evidence of profitability is how you get the right people to take on a problem; people that can find solutions.

it's really only a matter of time.

there was an earlier comment about battery improvement and then a response doubting that but, people just aren't aware of how much batteries have improved. i remember those first battery powered makita drills. i used to do ductwork. in fact, i have done installation and fabrication of sheetmetal duct for years.

back when i first started, those makitas were about it. they were expensive and you only used them for sheetmetal screws. you used roofing nails for hanger straps and stuff. even at that, you had to have two batteries with one always charging because they couldn't last more than half a day of use. ten years later, a fairly inexpensive ryobi battery powered drill would last two days and you didn't use nails to hang duct anymore. you used drywall screws, sometimes the two inch ones. those original battery powered drills didn't even have the power to screw a two inch drywall screw through a stud. ten years later and an inexpensive battery powered drill will do it all day long with no issue.

now, we have batter powered sawzalls that kick butt! batter powered skillsaws and hammer drills. oh, and battery powered cars. back when those first battery powered drills came out, you'd have never thought that was possible.

battery powered equipment has improved by leaps and bounds. it's only a matter of time for it to extend to other things and then become affordable.

the same thing can, and will, happen with power generation.
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Old 16-01-2017, 17:38   #95
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Re: Tesla Electric Yacht unveiled...

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Interestingly, the motor in a Tesla is an AC motor. There's an inverter to drive it from the DC batteries.

Same with most other all-electric and hybrid vehicles. Most folks can hear the inverter doing it's thing.

This has nothing to do with sailing at all.

lol at one point in my life, i'd agree. definitely not directly. however, since a motor is generally a part of most sailing vessels, these days, it does have something to do with sailing...just not with sailing.
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Old 16-01-2017, 17:41   #96
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Re: Tesla Electric Yacht unveiled...

The solution is simple:

Mount a big fan on your boat and make your own wind. No motor needed.
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Old 16-01-2017, 17:48   #97
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Re: Tesla Electric Yacht unveiled...

[QUOTE=Stumble;2305050]I think the reason people keep showing up hopeing electric can be used on boats is they see the huge gains in cars, and home systems, and simply have no idea how that translates to the demands of a boat. Because electricity pretty much happens in the background there is no real internal quantity that people ascribe to it.

But just as an example, my 40' sailboat needs about 12kw at the prop to operate at cruising speed of 6kn. It doesn't sound like a lot, and it isn't...

But a 100amp breaker box (which is about the average size for a house in the US) when operating at maximum capacity is about 12kw. So my boat just loafing along at a reasonable speed chews thru about as much power as an entire house can. But when was the last time anyone tripped their main breaker? I can't remember ever having done it, sure a 15 amp from time to time, but the main? Never.

At full speed my boat can claw thru about 35kw of power. So it would take the combined capacity of half my block to feed my engine at full power.

The average American home used 900kwh a month in electricity. A gallon of diesel has about 40kwh of power. So the average American home uses the energy equivilant of about 22 gallons of diesel a month, I can burn thru that a day at cruising speed.


But,but,but cars can do it. Ya, but cars power demands are tiny. As in really close to minimal.

The Tesla with its 85kwh battery pack is generally considered a massive one. But that's the functional equivilant of 2 gallons of gas. My boat holds 40 gallons of diesel, so if I convert I need a battery pack roughly 20 times larger than the Tesla has. Figure out the weight, size and cost of that pack and it obviously looks pretty silly to try and stash it on a 40' sailboat.

Even if we could push battery technology to the very limit of physical possibility, they would only be three times more energy dense than they currently are. That means at a minimum you would only need to buy seven Tesla equivilant battery packs. Which is still a tight fit on a 40' boat.


Then you turn to solar... another issue of scale. Modern solar panels are about 20% efficient, and 1m^2 of space will be hit with 1kw of solar energy. So over the course of the productive day of five hours that 1m^2 is hit with a total of 5kwh of power, of which we can capture 1kwh, which is nice because it make the math easy.

Keeping the numbers the same, my boat uses 288kwh a day (12kwh/h*24hours) at cruising speed, so all I need is 288m^2 of solar panels. The problem is my 40' sailboat has a rough surface area of only 45m^2, so even if I can cover 100% of my boat with solar panels I still only have 1/6 the power needed to keep my boat operating at cruising speed.

Even 100% efficient solar panels cannot provide enough power to keep my boat operating at just cruising speed, let alone at high cruise or full power.

But it works on my house right? Ya but on average a house uses 1.25kwh/h in the US. my boat literly uses more power in two hours than the average house will use in a day. So the solar panels for your house simply aren't big enough, and solar radiation simply isn't energy dense enough.


The solution to this frankly is probably renewable liquid fuels. Very high efficiency conversion between electricity and ethanol would work, because ethanol has a reasonably high energy density and it would probably be possible to convert excess solar generated while on the hook to liquid fuels for electrical use later. Combined with the ability to buy ethanol from the dock if you don't have enough for the next passage.[/QUOTE]

yeah. unfortunately ethanol has it's own problems. one of those being that using fresh plants to make fuel (as opposed to plants that have been converted to fossils over thousands of years) is that it takes crops out of food production, raising food costs. i used to think alcohol, like used in funny cars, would be a good renewable fuel source. it doesn't detonate as easily as gas so you could run very high compression ratios. however, it burns faster so you use more and it's hard on engine components.
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Old 16-01-2017, 17:53   #98
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Re: Tesla Electric Yacht unveiled...

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Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
Bingo Stumble :-0)!!

You stated as succinctly as it can reasonably be done the very nature of the oozly-woozly bird.

My first, rather flippant, response going on about men on bikes winding themselves keeping a hundred watt incandescent bulb lit for five minutes was, of course, an admittedly silly distillation of all you say. And an attempt to keep it light - ahem :-)

I'm admittedly impatient with the starry-eyed enthusiasts that were obviously absent that day in grade X when Jimmy Watt and the horse-power, as well as Jimmy's reason for wanting to define it, along with the use of the stuff Jimmy was lifting, were discussed.

And while we were being starry-eyed, someone mentioned that IHO education is the solution to the world' increasing load of H.sapiens. Would it were! China's draconian "one child" policy was eminently successful, right :-)? Start talking population control to my Indian friends and they have little pink pigs. NIMBY is what you get.

However, it does strike me that that standby of the sailorman, the "figure eight" knot, tied in appropriate places, might be useful. And that is where the TrentePieds' "Green Stamp" method of birth control comes in.


Wot, me worry? I'll be in Fiddlers' Green afore the fit hits the shan, but hit it surely will. Tesla notwithstanding :-)

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yeah. that's the big problem with the most sensible solution. guess that's why the sudden interest in mars and in finding habitable plants. it's easier to try to tackle the problems of space travel and colonizing other planets than it is to figure a way to get people to exhibit some control over their reproduction.


i figured that was your green stamp method
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Old 16-01-2017, 18:06   #99
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Re: Tesla Electric Yacht unveiled...

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Originally Posted by adoxograph View Post
The solution is simple:

Mount a big fan on your boat and make your own wind. No motor needed.
lol that illustrates one of the problems. we live in such a fast paced world. we expect to get from DC to new york in a few hours. we expect to go where we want, when we want. in days of yore (in geardagum...to quote beowulf), people didn't expect instant transportation. they waited for the tides and the appropriate weather. they didn't expect to get there at 4:30 sharp. if you weren't home to answer the phone, no problem. people accepted that there were times they couldn't get a hold of you and they just waited to talk to you. Gods forbid! waiting? what's that? now that we have been blessed with cell phones you never have a blissful moment of peace when no one can reach you.

of course, it takes energy to power all that zooming around; a lot of it. i think that's the number one reason i see given for having a motor on a sailboat; you can't wait for the wind, if you get becalmed. you have to get back so you can go to work monday morning or so you can go to dinner with the inlaws sunday evening, after a day of sailing.
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Old 16-01-2017, 19:20   #100
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Re: Tesla Electric Yacht unveiled...

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Originally Posted by first wind View Post
lol that illustrates one of the problems. we live in such a fast paced world. we expect to get from DC to new york in a few hours. we expect to go where we want, when we want. in days of yore (in geardagum...to quote beowulf), people didn't expect instant transportation. they waited for the tides and the appropriate weather. they didn't expect to get there at 4:30 sharp. if you weren't home to answer the phone, no problem. people accepted that there were times they couldn't get a hold of you and they just waited to talk to you. Gods forbid! waiting? what's that? now that we have been blessed with cell phones you never have a blissful moment of peace when no one can reach you.

of course, it takes energy to power all that zooming around; a lot of it. i think that's the number one reason i see given for having a motor on a sailboat; you can't wait for the wind, if you get becalmed. you have to get back so you can go to work monday morning or so you can go to dinner with the inlaws sunday evening, after a day of sailing.
Actually the real problem with the giant fan is it would be a perpetual motion machine, but thanks for playing.

And I was actually talking about using electricity to manufacture ethanol not plant bases. It needs to be a storage system for electricity after all, not a seperate fuel.

The problem with renewables on boats comes down to energy density, and while I have mentioned it before, just ones again with emphasis.

BATTERIES CANNOT GET MORE THAN THREE TIMES BETTER THAN THEY ARE!!!

There simply aren't enough atoms I need the substances to store any more than three times the number we currently store. Will there be gains? Sure, but even a 100% dense battery ISNT GOOD ENOUGH.
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Old 16-01-2017, 19:46   #101
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Re: Tesla Electric Yacht unveiled...

On optimistic note, about the population problem, not the electric boat: one sure fire solution to overpopulation is prosperity and education. Admittedly, prosperity as a solution to overpopulation is in the same category as benevolent dictator being the best form of government: it's hard to come by. But I am thinking of Japan, their population is declining and so is to lesser extent the native population of all the most prosperous countries. Raise the standard of living everywhere and you'll have to beg people to make babies. Not that I know how to go about it (raising the standard of living), but I guess it may be easier that raising the efficiency of solar panels ten times, to get back closer to the topic.
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Old 16-01-2017, 20:02   #102
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Re: Tesla Electric Yacht unveiled...

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Stumble I would be careful using absolute statements like this. Energy storage is not limited to batteries. There are new technologies developed all the time.

One example: Future of energy storage | MIT News
Interesting article here on limits of energy storage technology:

The limits of energy storage technology | Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists
"...
The bottom line is that nature has given us hydrocarbons in the form of fossil carbon and biomass, and their energy-mass and energy-volume densities are superior to the thermodynamic limits of nearly all conceivable alternatives. Thus, it's quite likely that hydrocarbons of one form or another will be humanity's primary energy storage medium for quite a long time."
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Old 16-01-2017, 20:08   #103
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Re: Tesla Electric Yacht unveiled...

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Interesting article here on limits of energy storage technology:

The limits of energy storage technology | Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists
"...
The bottom line is that nature has given us hydrocarbons in the form of fossil carbon and biomass, and their energy-mass and energy-volume densities are superior to the thermodynamic limits of nearly all conceivable alternatives. Thus, it's quite likely that hydrocarbons of one form or another will be humanity's primary energy storage medium for quite a long time."
BS! In 5 years time we all carry little communicators and Scotty will beam us up

Hydrocarbons, yeah right. Haven't you heard Peak oil was 8 years ago and we are all frelled!

On a serious note: There are other energy storage technologies, which - unfortunately - are not suitable (yet) for boats
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Old 16-01-2017, 20:10   #104
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Re: Tesla Electric Yacht unveiled...

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Raise the standard of living everywhere and you'll have to beg people to make babies. Not that I know how to go about it (raising the standard of living), but I guess it may be easier that raising the efficiency of solar panels ten times, to get back closer to the topic.
The problem at the moment is that many cultures are still at the "need to make lots of babies to ensure that enough survive to adulthood" way of thinking and they haven't adjusted to the decreasing levels of infant mortality. Families thus have too many mouths to feed (and educate) and that keeps them in poverty/ignorance.

Educating people to have less children now that more are surviving in itself raises standard of living.
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Old 16-01-2017, 20:11   #105
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Re: Tesla Electric Yacht unveiled...

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Hydrocarbons, yeah right. Haven't you heard Peak oil was 8 years ago and we are all frelled!
Hydrocarbon <> fossil fuel.
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