Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 14-12-2015, 03:44   #91
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Let's not get sidetracked about the additional power source being diesel or electric. If the main purpose of the power source is to make the boat go faster than using wind alone, then the vessel is no longer a "sail boat", but a power assited sail boat, IMO.
If the power source is used only for crew comforts, navigation and safety etc, then that is a different kettle of fish and the vessel remains a "sail boat", again IMO.
But the 'main purpose of the power source' is not to make the boat to go faster, it's to operate hydrolics and computers. of course in a bigger context to do with these professional maxi's I guess absolutely everything is designed to make the boat go faster, even down to the shiny paint work. So I guess we can introduce 'paint' to the definition of a motor sailer too.

I guess all previous CF discussions on what makes a motor sailer are now old.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorsailer
__________________

__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2015, 03:57   #92
Marine Service Provider
 
Factor's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Corsair Dash MKII
Posts: 4,086
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Seriously - the engine runs on Oats primarily to run the canting keel. The keel cants to keep the boat flat so that you don't spill your tea.

Wait -no - sorry got that wrong, it cants so the boat goes faster. thats right -
__________________

__________________
Factor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2015, 04:01   #93
Registered User
 
Mirage Gecko's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sunshine Coast Hinterland
Boat: Seawind 1200 TEC 3
Posts: 430
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Sydney to Hobart is the only race I follow and I suppose I don't really follow it as such simply watch what I can on Boxing Day then the odd bit they throw at us on the news for a couple days then nothing for 12 months.
How did Comanche perform during the past 12 months?
__________________
Mirage Gecko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2015, 04:05   #94
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Sydney
Boat: Wanted: Schionning Arrow 1360'ish
Posts: 590
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Well from what I've been googling this evening, Wild Oats has pretty much the same 'power' requirements as some of the other big Maxie's. But Wild Oats made an alteration and decided to run its engine 24/7 in order to lesson weight by dispensing with the need for a battery bank.

So please tell, is there any other maxi that decided to do the same thing and dispense with a battery bank?

Can you cite the explanation that there is 'no technology to support their power to sail? And this time please don't yell. Apologizing and then deliberation yelling to get your point across is still unnecessary.
Look, they can't sail without the engine running. And I don't belive that they have the same power requirements as others as they're all configured differently. As 44c has already described regarding commanche.

And if you'd read the posts already posted you'd already know why...

Sent from my SM-T520 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
tp12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2015, 06:52   #95
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Obviously it depends on what systems rely on engine power to operate them.

Wild Oats uses hydraulics to power all the systems the boat relies on to sail. Sheet winches, halyard winches, the canting keel... If the engine isn't running the boat can't be sailed. The engine in Wild Oats is NEVER stopped during a race.

Some other boats run generators but purely to operate communications, and maybe navigations electronics. But NOT sailing systems. If the engine stops they can keep right on sailing. And most of the time the engine is NOT running.

Can you see the distinction there? With Wild Oats, and the like, no engine, no go. Other boats can keep on sailing whether the engine is running or not.
Yes off course I can see the difference but it has nothing to do with the way the boat is moved: Exclusively by sails and that makes it a sailboat, not a motorsailor.

All the rest regards the way the boat systems are run and about that we can have different preferences. Some would prefer all manual and a huge crew, I would prefer all the help they can get from modern systems and the crew reduced to a minimum, on a boat like the Wild oats, if maximized for that I think 3 or 4 could race the boat, maybe even two.

On the Wild Oats (and on most Maxi) they run modern systems that need energy and the way it is produced is irrelevant in what regards sailing. They have also a huge crew of about 30. For me I like a lot less the huge crew than the use of modern systems even if I don't like the idea of having an engine, generator or boat engine, running for it the full time.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2015, 06:59   #96
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by Factor View Post
Seriously - the engine runs on Oats primarily to run the canting keel. The keel cants to keep the boat flat so that you don't spill your tea.

Wait -no - sorry got that wrong, it cants so the boat goes faster. thats right -
I don't think so. In fact the canting keel is only moved when they change tack (that is not very frequent on Ocean racing) while the winches are needed for almost constant use, for trimming and changing sails with different wind conditions, on the same tack.

There are 60ft canting keel boats that don't use neither the engine neither a generator (only renewable energy) to sail and cant the keel but I doubt that it would be possible if all the winches were always operated in electric mode.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2015, 07:06   #97
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Sydney
Boat: Wanted: Schionning Arrow 1360'ish
Posts: 590
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Yes off course I can see the difference but it has nothing to do with the way the boat is moved: Exclusively by sails and that makes it a sailboat, not a motorsailor.

All the rest regards the way the boat systems are run and about that we can have different preferences. Some would prefer all manual and a huge crew, I would prefer all the help they can get from modern systems and the crew reduced to a minimum, on a boat like the Wild oats, if maximized for that I think 3 or 4 could race the boat, maybe even two.

On the Wild Oats (and on most Maxi) they run modern systems that need energy and the way it is produced is irrelevant in what regards sailing. They have also a huge crew of about 30. For me I like a lot less the huge crew than the use of modern systems even if I don't like the idea of having an engine, generator or boat engine, running for it the full time.
Yes, it does have everything to do with how the boat is moved. To power the winches the engine needs to be running, ergo, no engine = no sails hoisted = no sailing. Engine stops = game over. Commanche, by way of comparison, has a few gorillas on grinders and can sail without the engine and avoids being labeled a motorsailor.

Sent from my SM-T520 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
tp12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2015, 07:10   #98
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage Gecko View Post
Sydney to Hobart is the only race I follow and I suppose I don't really follow it as such simply watch what I can on Boxing Day then the odd bit they throw at us on the news for a couple days then nothing for 12 months.
How did Comanche perform during the past 12 months?
Very well. In fact Comanche will be a faster boat on most sea conditions but we are not talking about most sea conditions but about the Sydney Hobbart that has very particular conditions.

On my blog you can find a comparison between the two boats (use the search engine) and it is amazing how such different sailboats (nothing to do with running the engine full time) can have so similar performances.

Basically Wild Oats can go considerably faster on very, very light winds (that is how it won the race last year), faster on light winds, slower on a beam reach and slightly slower downwind. It can also go faster upwind if the seas and waves are big.

So it has to do all with the sea conditions that they will meet during the race.

If it was for a Transat or an absolute speed record, Wild Oats would not stand a chance, if it was for a race on the med, probably Wild Oats would be faster. On the Sydney Hobart only God knows since conditions are many times different and that is what makes the race between those two so interesting.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2015, 07:13   #99
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Sydney
Boat: Wanted: Schionning Arrow 1360'ish
Posts: 590
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
But the 'main purpose of the power source' is not to make the boat to go faster
Yes, it is. Why do you think they bother canting the keel? For aesthetics? A more comfortable ride? The powered winches are so there's spare crew to make g&t's?

They're leading the bleeding edge in (monohull) racing, pretty much everything they do is to make the boat go faster.

Sent from my SM-T520 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
tp12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2015, 07:18   #100
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Sydney
Boat: Wanted: Schionning Arrow 1360'ish
Posts: 590
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Very well. In fact Comanche will be a faster boat on most sea conditions but we are not talking about most sea conditions but about the Sydney Hobbart that has very particular conditions.

On my blog you can find a comparison between the two boats (use the search engine) and it is amazing how such different sailboats (nothing to do with running the engine full time) can have so similar performances.

Basically Wild Oats can go considerably faster on very, very light winds (that is how it won the race last year), faster on light winds, slower on a beam reach and slightly slower downwind. It can also go faster upwind if the seas and waves are big.

So it has to do all with the sea conditions that they will meet during the race.

If it was for a Transat or an absolute speed record, Wild Oats would not stand a chance, if it was for a race on the med, probably Wild Oats would be faster. On the Sydney Hobart only God knows since conditions are many times different and that is what makes the race between those two so interesting.
I think the mods done to WO11 lessen Commanche's advantages when the wind moves aft of the beam and gets stronger and still retain their uphill and lighter wind advantages. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if it goes uphill better and the new bow will slice through anything

Sent from my SM-T520 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
tp12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2015, 10:16   #101
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
What systems? Ocean racing multihulls don't have canting keels or hydraulic winches.

The SAILING systems are human powered.
It seems you don't know since you did not reply when I asked for you to say what they used for production of energy for all systems on that old ORMA 60, the fastest Australian multihull ocean racer. Well, I will answer for you: mainly the engine. It seems you don't know that they use hydraulics too.

The Orma 60 is not a good example since it is an old design that was substituted by the fastest, safest and more competitive Mod 70, but even the Orma 60 used hydraulics for tilting and canting the mast and move the foils up and down:

"Ces différentes inclinaisons sont possibles grâce à l'action de vérins hydrauliques reliés aux haubans et situés sur les flotteurs ou au niveau du bras de liaison arrière."
http://www.voile-multicoques.com/7.html

The Mod 70 are more complex, use them for all of that, also for hydraulic safety systems.

The differences between the ORMA 60 and the Mod 70:

"The threat of capsize and carnage was part of the attraction for the sailors, sponsors, and fans that embraced the high-flying ORMA 60 trimaran during its heyday a decade ago. When the threat turned into reality—such as in the 2002 Route du Rhum, when 18 of the spindly speedsters started, but only three finished—it was the beginning of the end for offshore racing’s most exciting, groundbreaking class. Sponsor dissatisfaction, escalating costs, and the inability of the principles to agree on a solution all contributed to the class’s rapid demise. By 2007, it was dead.

But the phoenix has now risen from the ashes in the form of the new Multi One Design 70, or MOD70, a 70-foot trimaran that should deliver much of the excitement of the ORMA 60s, with significantly less risk....

The new boat retains some of the ORMA 60’s most significant go-faster features, including a rotating wingmast, which can be canted 8 degrees to windward via shrouds that terminate in giant hydraulic rams. It also has retractable curved foils in both floats. ..
At each corner of the cockpit is a bucket seat, tiller, and traveler winch for the helmsman, as well as hydraulic releases for the mast cant and the mainsheet. In the middle of the cockpit are two grinding pedestals, which drive the winches and a rotary hydraulic pump for the mast cant, the mainsheet, and other high-load sail controls.There is a large doghouse, with controls for the daggerboard, outer foils, and the rig, led on either side to dual pit workstations."


The MOD Squad | Sailing World

These hydraulic systems, all electronics, navigation and communication systems, night lights (and when short crew raced, the autopilot) are run through a battery bank that needs the engine to be run for several hours a day.

"Que ce soit pour les Multi50 ou les MOD70, l’éolienne et le moteur thermique demeurent les deux sources d’énergie principales....Sur la majorité des bateaux au départ de la Transat Jacques Vabre, le moteur thermique est largement utilisé.

Les marins le font tourner entre 2 et 3 heures par 24 heures histoire de garder un niveau de batteries suffisant.

Si, seuls les MOD70, monotypes, sont dans l’obligation de remplir totalement leur réservoir de 70 litres, pour les IMOCA, les Class40 et les Multi50 chacun gère, fait son choix, d’où l’importance de multiplier les sources d’énergie. Mais tous sont d’avis qu’il ne serait pas raisonnable de quitter le port avec trop de peu de gasoil, sait on jamais… Damien Seguin, sur son Class40 Des pieds et des Mains est le seul à avoir opté pour le moteur 100% électrique alimenté par une pile au lithium et au phosphate. Un bateau dans l’air du temps…"

L'énergie à bord : une question d'équilibre | Transat Jacques Vabre 2015 : Le Havre - Itajai | Octobre 2015

It seems that many that are posting here know very little about offshore top races and about the boats, aren't really interested by offshore sail racing and are on this thread not for the race but for bringing here that anachronistic and silly debate between Monohulls or Multihulls being the best sailboats, as if the interest of this race has anything to do with cruising types of sailboats or as if it there was not enough different tastes among sailors to chose one type of boat over another.

I am really sorry this is not a mixed race, I really like to see all sailboats racing together, but it is not, so if you are not interested on it why keeping posting absurd statements about monohull racing sailboats being motorsailors?
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2015, 10:22   #102
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by tp12 View Post
I think the mods done to WO11 lessen Commanche's advantages when the wind moves aft of the beam and gets stronger and still retain their uphill and lighter wind advantages. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if it goes uphill better and the new bow will slice through anything
Yes I agree. That was the objective of those modifications: increasing hull stability form and making the boat faster on a beam reach and downwind. Even so we are talking here about a very small difference(that can make all the difference between winning or losing) and that will not change basically the strong and weak points of each type of boat.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2015, 12:32   #103
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,458
Images: 69
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

[QUOTE=Rustic Charm;1986811]But the 'main purpose of the power source' is not to make the boat to go faster, it's to operate hydrolics and computers. [QUOTE]

A ridiculous statement, given that without running it's engine Wild Oats would barely be able to move at all.

No halyard winches to raise sails, no sheet winches to trim sails.
__________________
"You CANNOT be serious!"


John McEnroe
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2015, 12:38   #104
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,458
Images: 69
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
It seems you don't know since you did not reply when I asked for you to say what they used for production of energy for all systems on that old ORMA 60, the fastest Australian multihull ocean racer. Well, I will answer for you: mainly the engine. It seems you don't know that they use hydraulics too.

The Orma 60 is not a good example since it is an old design that was substituted by the fastest, safest and more competitive Mod 70, but even the Orma 60 used hydraulics for tilting and canting the mast and move the foils up and down:

"Ces différentes inclinaisons sont possibles grâce à l'action de vérins hydrauliques reliés aux haubans et situés sur les flotteurs ou au niveau du bras de liaison arrière."
http://www.voile-multicoques.com/7.html

The Mod 70 are more complex, use them for all of that, also for hydraulic safety systems.

The differences between the ORMA 60 and the Mod 70:

"The threat of capsize and carnage was part of the attraction for the sailors, sponsors, and fans that embraced the high-flying ORMA 60 trimaran during its heyday a decade ago. When the threat turned into reality—such as in the 2002 Route du Rhum, when 18 of the spindly speedsters started, but only three finished—it was the beginning of the end for offshore racing’s most exciting, groundbreaking class. Sponsor dissatisfaction, escalating costs, and the inability of the principles to agree on a solution all contributed to the class’s rapid demise. By 2007, it was dead.

But the phoenix has now risen from the ashes in the form of the new Multi One Design 70, or MOD70, a 70-foot trimaran that should deliver much of the excitement of the ORMA 60s, with significantly less risk....

The new boat retains some of the ORMA 60’s most significant go-faster features, including a rotating wingmast, which can be canted 8 degrees to windward via shrouds that terminate in giant hydraulic rams. It also has retractable curved foils in both floats. ..
At each corner of the cockpit is a bucket seat, tiller, and traveler winch for the helmsman, as well as hydraulic releases for the mast cant and the mainsheet. In the middle of the cockpit are two grinding pedestals, which drive the winches and a rotary hydraulic pump for the mast cant, the mainsheet, and other high-load sail controls.There is a large doghouse, with controls for the daggerboard, outer foils, and the rig, led on either side to dual pit workstations."


The MOD Squad | Sailing World

These hydraulic systems, all electronics, navigation and communication systems, night lights (and when short crew raced, the autopilot) are run through a battery bank that needs the engine to be run for several hours a day.
If you're going to copy and paste something it might be a good idea to read it first. The item you quoted clearly states that the hydraulics on the trimarans are NOT driven by engines, but are driven by
" two grinding pedestals, which drive the winches and a rotary hydraulic pump for the mast cant, the mainsheet, and other high-load sail controls"
__________________
"You CANNOT be serious!"


John McEnroe
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2015, 13:13   #105
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,458
Images: 69
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post

There are 60ft canting keel boats that don't use neither the engine neither a generator (only renewable energy) to sail and cant the keel but I doubt that it would be possible if all the winches were always operated in electric mode.
And these are proper sailing boats. The ones that have to have an engine running in order to "sail" are not.
__________________

__________________
"You CANNOT be serious!"


John McEnroe
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
sydney

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Crew Wanted: Hobart to Sydney in late May 2015 Amnesia II Crew Archives 12 17-04-2015 15:01
Crew Available: Sydney to Hobart/Melbourne to Hobart. stoffer123 Crew Archives 0 25-11-2012 21:52
And the Sydney Hobart winner is----- Factor General Sailing Forum 6 04-01-2009 15:01
Sydney to Hobart 07 Factor General Sailing Forum 60 02-01-2008 04:38
The Rules for a cruisers Sydney to Hobart ! cooper General Sailing Forum 2 28-12-2007 04:25



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:44.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.