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Old 13-12-2015, 07:55   #61
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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I thought the fastest sail boat in Australia is Sailrocket, that's hardly an old French boat?
No, but that does not qualify as an oceanic racer.

I don't know what is going on in Australia regarding bias towards monohull and multihull races and the antagonism many show regarding the other type of sailboat racers. Maybe it has to do with on the bigger Australian race multihulls not to be allowed?

Maybe the ones that talk that way just don't like sail racing at all and only wish multihulls to be faster than monohulls even if race multihulls have nothing to do with cruiser boats, not even cruiser racers?

I find that rather odd. In what regards ocean racing the French rule, specially in what regards short or solo crewed racing (that I think it will be the future in what regards oceanic racing) and there are no antagonism between the ones that love to follow those races neither among the sailors that sail monohulls and multihulls.

Some of the best sailors race indifferently top ocean racing monohulls and top ocean racing multihulls with victories on both classes. Maybe because they are professionals and don't own the boats the attachment to a given type of boat is smaller?

But what to say about the public, that is huge in France, that love sailboat racing and don't make big distinctions, much less antagonism, regarding both type of boats, even if they can have a preference.

Personally one of the classes I like more are the Multi 50 trimarans, that have about the same performance of the Open 60's, but are much more difficult to sail and where the performance of a very good sailor is very important for a different boat performance. To go fast on those, specially in strong weather they sail on the edge lot's of time and that is not only spectacular but awesome regarding personal performance: On those conditions a small mistake and they can capsize.
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Old 13-12-2015, 13:39   #62
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Polux,

You simply miss they key point about Wild Oates.

It does not have an engine to re - charge its batteries ocassionally to replace the energy consumed running the vessel.

It has a large engine that must be running at all times to power its systems.

That tends to make it more of a motor sailor as others have suggested. rules have been changed to allow for it.
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Old 13-12-2015, 14:04   #63
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

IMO. For me, I'd like to get rid of all the 'push button' maxi's. Not just the one that runs it's engine 24/7. But any vessel that needs computer aided hydrolics to run sails and keels. And Wild Oats is not the only one.

I'd like to see it get back to the days of the 'human power' sail. I really don't care if they run an engine for purposes of their power consumption. But not if that power is needed to run keels, rudders and sails. And yes, I know full well that the big maxi's can't be operated under human hands alone. That's my point. I'd like to see the race getting back to basics.
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Old 13-12-2015, 14:18   #64
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Yes rules can change but the only reason a boat like Wild Oates has to run the engine 100% of the time it is because it has no batteries to store the electric energy, to make it lighter. A racing boat like that can be easily provided with the means to use only the engine some hours a day for charging the batteries.

In fact that was nothing to do with being a monohull or multihull but with an odd radical decision to make it completely dependent of a continuously running engine for energy production and for running all systems. The boat has not even manual backups.

I don't like it at all, but again it has nothing to do with being monohull or multihull. In what regards ocean racing multihulls use the engine to charge the batteries several hours a day, like the monohulls.

There are some Ocean racers completely autonomous regarding the use of the engine but the ones I know are all monohulls. The system is not used more time because the boats are more heavy and therefore less competitive but I think that should be made a rule. That way all would be in equal circumstances and that will allow for the fast development of better technologies that we could use for cruising.

Don't mean that for safety they could not have the possibility of using the engine for charging batteries, just needed to make it so heavily penalized that it would not be worth it, except for safety reasons.
Nope, you're wrong.

Wild Oates uses hydraulics to operate the keel and the winches. The hydraulics are engine driven.

No engine = no sailing. It's as simple as that. Without an engine running they couldn't even hoist the sails, let alone trim them.

And it's not just Wild Oates. Some of the other maxis are in the same boat.
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Old 13-12-2015, 14:25   #65
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Try reading this Polux:


Will push-button boats destroy the Sydney-Hobart yacht race?


"At the pointy end, the race has come to be dominated by professionally crewed Super Maxi yachts, multi-million dollar high performance vessels whose hi-tech canting keels and sail trimming winches rely entirely on hydraulic power generated by diesel engines that run throughout the race. "


"“Wild Oats XI has a 150hp diesel that runs 24-7 during the Hobart Race. Without it, it is virtually impossible to sail the boat. If the engine stops they’re out of the race. No engine, no sail. "


"
“On a Super Maxi,” he told me, “the crew spend the majority of their time praying.”
Really? Praying for what?
“They’re praying that the engine keeps working,” he said. “You’re on a sailing boat and yet you rely completely on machinery to go on sailing. I find this to be such a negative part of the sport. You might as well be at home sitting in a shower, tearing up $100 bills.”
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Old 13-12-2015, 14:31   #66
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Polux,

You simply miss they key point about Wild Oates.

It does not have an engine to re - charge its batteries ocassionally to replace the energy consumed running the vessel.

It has a large engine that must be running at all times to power its systems.

That tends to make it more of a motor sailor as others have suggested. rules have been changed to allow for it.
And by systems, we are not talking about electronics or hydraulics to power winches etc, we are talking about actual design features which are constantly powered such as canting keels and protruding foils which alter the actual performance of the boat.
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Old 13-12-2015, 14:44   #67
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

This is the fastest 'French' boat. Nothing old about this one though. Not in Australia either.

Always On - Flying on the world's fastest sailboat | Video
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Old 13-12-2015, 16:22   #68
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Polux,

You simply miss they key point about Wild Oates.

It does not have an engine to re - charge its batteries ocassionally to replace the energy consumed running the vessel.

It has a large engine that must be running at all times to power its systems.

That tends to make it more of a motor sailor as others have suggested. rules have been changed to allow for it.
a motorsailor is a sailboat that uses sails and an engine for propulsion. it is not the case with any of the boats racing the Sydney-Hobart.

Saying that a sailboat that uses an engine to generate electrical energy to power up systems is a motorsailor does not make any sense.
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Old 13-12-2015, 16:34   #69
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Nope, you're wrong.

Wild Oates uses hydraulics to operate the keel and the winches. The hydraulics are engine driven.

No engine = no sailing. It's as simple as that. Without an engine running they couldn't even hoist the sails, let alone trim them.

And it's not just Wild Oates. Some of the other maxis are in the same boat.
They use the engine to produce energy, could use a generator? What is the difference? How do you think ocean racing multihulls produce energy to run their systems?

Not using a battery bank is a strange option that makes necessary the permanent use of the engine or a generator to produce energy.

The only difference between an ocean racer, being it monohull or multihull, with a battery bank is that instead of having to run the engine or a generator full time, they only need to run it 2 or 3 hours a day. What is the big deal?
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Old 13-12-2015, 16:48   #70
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
IMO. For me, I'd like to get rid of all the 'push button' maxi's. Not just the one that runs it's engine 24/7. But any vessel that needs computer aided hydrolics to run sails and keels. And Wild Oats is not the only one.

I'd like to see it get back to the days of the 'human power' sail. I really don't care if they run an engine for purposes of their power consumption. But not if that power is needed to run keels, rudders and sails. And yes, I know full well that the big maxi's can't be operated under human hands alone. That's my point. I'd like to see the race getting back to basics.
I guess that we can have different views about that. When you need 20 or more sailors to run a boat (Wild Oats can have 29 as crew) you are using a big amount of human energy.

That seems to me quite primitive. I would rather like to see Maxy yachts raced by a team of four with all the help they can get regarding modern systems.

Then you would be sure not to have aboard old millionaires because all would have to be top sailors.

The same way I would like to see reduced the crew of smaller boats to two instead of having a bunch of guys inside each sailboat.

It is not the use of modern systems on racing sailboats that I find anachronic but the need of a huge crew.
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Old 13-12-2015, 17:43   #71
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
They use the engine to produce energy, could use a generator? What is the difference? How do you think ocean racing multihulls produce energy to run their systems?

Not using a battery bank is a strange option that makes necessary the permanent use of the engine or a generator to produce energy.

The only difference between an ocean racer, being it monohull or multihull, with a battery bank is that instead of having to run the engine or a generator full time, they only need to run it 2 or 3 hours a day. What is the big deal?
OH dear, you just don't get it do you?
With the energy requirements that the 120 HP engine constantly running fulfills any battery bank would have to be HUGE, way beyond practical.
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Old 13-12-2015, 17:55   #72
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

I wonder if the race will be "won" by the "payer" who spends the most money or the "payer" who spends the second most money, an interesting race!!!!!!!
"Payer" is an important crew position, not necessarily sailing on the boat.
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Old 13-12-2015, 18:21   #73
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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a motorsailor is a sailboat that uses sails and an engine for propulsion. it is not the case with any of the boats racing the Sydney-Hobart.

Saying that a sailboat that uses an engine to generate electrical energy to power up systems is a motorsailor does not make any sense.
I agree with you on this point
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Old 13-12-2015, 18:28   #74
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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OH dear, you just don't get it do you?
With the energy requirements that the 120 HP engine constantly running fulfills any battery bank would have to be HUGE, way beyond practical.
I don't understand your superiority outlook regarding that comment. It seems to me that the Wild Oats energy needs would not be much different from Comanche or the other Maxi and they don't run the engine full time because they have a battery bank.

Anyway any big ocean racer has to run the engine or a generator for charging batteries some hours a day. Are they motorsailers while they are charging the batteries? and sailboats when they stop to charge them and sail without having a engine or a generator working?
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Old 13-12-2015, 18:34   #75
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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OH dear, you just don't get it do you?
With the energy requirements that the 120 HP engine constantly running fulfills any battery bank would have to be HUGE, way beyond practical.
I think you can put your differences across without the need to be condescending.. Be nice be happy
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