Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 29-12-2015, 11:59   #376
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Yes, just one of those gambles that didn't play off
Yes, but what makes it stupid is that it was not necessary to win. They had just to shadow and control Ragamuffin. Any gamble when there is no need to gamble to win is a very amateurish and a poor move. I bet that there are a lot of pissed guys on Rambler with the guy that took that tactical decision

Regarding the overall winner of the race, besides that comparison that I provided to you between the different grades of skills needed to drive a F1 at 100% and a VW beetle at 100% (or a TP 52 and a S&S 34) I would like you to consider this:

As you can see the results regarding the boats that are better positioned to win the race ( 1st compensated in IRC) are changing all the time with different boats assuming leading positions.

If winning the race (IRC) had any meaning that would mean that the boat that was better sailed was changing all the time. Off course that has not any sense and it has nothing to do with that but with the fact that faster boats, medium fast boats and slower boats don't get all the same weather (when they pass to the same local) and that means that winning overall on IRC, in this case winning the race, is a matter of luck regarding the weather they got, among well sailed boats. Nothing to do with the better sailed boat.

The only way you have to warranty absolutely meaningful results in a sail race is doing it in real time. Only if you have to physically overtake a sailboat you can be sure that they had the same opportunities. A good routing in this case is not in what regards weather a question of chance but a question of skill.

The only other acceptable way, not as good but meaningful is not to have an overall winner,(because fast and slower boats get different weather) but several winners, one for each IRC division. For this to really work well there should be more divisions with more close rating inside each division.

But even so if you look to the results of this race inside the same division you are going to see they don't change widely, like on the overall IRC leader and that in some cases you have the same leader all the race.

Why?, because the boats on the same division tend to get all the same weather pattern since their performance is similar, meaning these are the only relatively meaningful IRC results, being the one of the overall winner just a question of luck among the best sailed boats.

Even so a relative meaning, because the Divisions are so wide in what regards the space between ratings that allow a huge difference regarding the sail's boats performance and the weather a boat is going to get.

Take for instance Division 0 where the bigger boats are and you can see that the probable winner of the division, Chinese Whisper, a JV62, took 15 hours more than Comanche and that means that when he passed through the race course it got completely different weather conditions.

The same can be said regarding other divisions with special relevance for Division 4 (Division 0 and 4 are the bigger ones) where the 1st on the division, the old S&S 34 is sailing more than 50 miles behind the 2th, the JPK 10.80 and that means about 7/8 hours difference in what regards passing on the same place and obviously conditions on a place change widely in 8 hours, specially with the type of variable winds you have on this race.

Off course, this type of limitation in what regards IRC racing to be meaningful is hugely bigger on a long Oceanic race than on a regatta course, that is raced on a short limited space and were conditions are much more homogeneous to faster and slower boats.
__________________

Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2015, 13:29   #377
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

A Twit from the S2H

@rshyr

The really light winds forecast suggest any boat still at sea faces a major uphill battle for overall win.

That is the same to say that the win on IRC will not go for the ones that are still sailing but I would say that he is talking about those that are relatively near the finish and he is talking about the forecast for the next yours.

The S&S 34 is so far away that in fact may benefit because he would still get a push from stronger winds.

Anyway we can see that the two boats that are now 1st and 2nd, Balance and Ragamuffin 52 arrived very close one to another suggesting that they got the more favorable weather....till now. Balance and Ragamuffin 52 are both TP52, with a very similar rating and got the same weather conditions through out the race.

It seems that this year to win the race it was needed to have a TP52 or a boat with a similar rating and sail well the boat, off course.

Unless the S&S 34 can find more favorable weather conditions on its slow race and in that case the boat to have to win this Hobart would have to be a an old slow or very small modern boat with a very big handicap.

The S&S 34 has a IRC of 0.926 and that on a modern performance cruiser would correspond to a 29/30ft boat, if not a racer, if a racer it would be way smaller than that. That type of boat and a very well sailed one.
__________________

Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2015, 17:11   #378
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
2015 - 2016?
If you are still doing the race in 2016 its aa very 'normal' boat...
This is why I put it as 2015-2016, Myuna III - SYC is still coming down the East Coast. I doubt they will be in before midnight. The race doesn't finish until the last one is in.
__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2015, 17:13   #379
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

  • 31 Dec, 2015 09:00:00 AM
Balance declared winner of 2015 Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race

After a long day and overnight wait, Paul Clitheroe’s TP52 Balance was this morning declared the overall winner of the 2015 Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race, Clitheroe’s major rival for the Tattersall’s Cup, Quikpoint Azzurro gliding over the finish line in Hobart at 07.37.59 hours this morning to claim third place.
__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2015, 17:19   #380
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Shuguang Haiyang,


The all Chinese boat has finally past Cape Raoul and is in Storm Bay on the last leg. They plan to sail around the world in the new year. Given they sailed the boat from China only in November, they have done a pretty good job.
__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2015, 18:50   #381
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

2th overall was Courrier Leon the 35ft JPK 10.80 that arrived more than 13 hours before the S&S 34. Both boats made a great race taking into account their sailing potential.

As I have said, in what regards sailing performance, division results are more meaningful than the overall winner of the race, that is also a winner division, but being that particular winner division the overall winner has mostly to do with the more favorable weather conditions the well sailed boats of that division found in comparison with the conditions the well sailed boats of the other divisions experienced.

So let's have a look at all IRC division winners:

Division 0 - "Chinese whisper" is a top recent 62ft Carbon racer designed by Judel Vrolijk, skippered by Australian Rubert Henry with an Australian crew.

Division 1 - "Balance" is a recent Carbon racer TP52 designed by Farr, skipped by Australian Paul Clitheroe with an Australian crew.

Division 2 - "Rush" is a kevlar racer, a Farr 45 a boat with already some years, skipped by Australian John Paterson and even if the best sailed boat on his division was not as well sailed as the boats on other divisions. In fact the winner of Division 3, that should have been slower was faster in real time (and that is just awesome).

Division 3 - "Teasing machine", a production GRP A13 cruiser/racer designed by Bernard Nivelt, skipped by French Eric De Turckheim with a French crew.

Division 4 - "Courrier Leon", a production GRP JPK 10.80 cruiser/racer designed by J. Valer, skipped by Quintin & Trentesaux with a French crew.

In what regards winners it was probably the more international S2H ever with an American boat taking line honors and two French boats taking two of the 5 IRC divisions and that can only be a good thing since it will create an incentive for more non Australian teams to come to race the S2H, making it a bigger international race.

A last word to the Italians of Maserati, the VOR 70ft that for a long time were racing head to head with 100ft Ragamuffin leading their division, till the moment the light winds arrived and then they started to lose ground rapidly.

It turns out that they were on a very low budget, they sailed the boat to Australia to race and they did not have a Code 0. That's why on the very light winds they stayed almost dead on the water while Ragamuffin flying a big code 0 went away quickly.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2015, 18:56   #382
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
2th overall was Courrier Leon the 35ft JPK 10.80 that arrived more than 13 hours before the S&S 34. Both boats made a great race taking into account their sailing potential.

As I have said, in what regards sailing performance, division results are more meaningful than the overall winner of the race, that is also a winner division, but being that particular winner division the overall winner has mostly to do with the more favorable weather conditions the well sailed boats of that division found in comparison with the conditions the well sailed boats of the other divisions experienced.

So let's have a look at all IRC division winners:

Division 0 - "Chinese whisper" is a top recent 62ft Carbon racer designed by Judel Vrolijk, skippered by Australian Rubert Henry with an Australian crew.

Division 1 - "Balance" is a recent Carbon racer TP52 designed by Farr, skipped by Australian Paul Clitheroe with an Australian crew.

Division 2 - "Rush" is a kevlar racer, a Farr 45 a boat with already some years, skipped by Australian John Paterson and even if the best sailed boat on his division was not as well sailed as the boats on other divisions. In fact the winner of Division 3, that should have been slower was faster in real time (and that is just awesome).

Division 3 - "Teasing machine", a production GRP A13 cruiser/racer designed by Bernard Nivelt, skipped by French Eric De Turckheim with a French crew.

Division 4 - "Courrier Leon", a production GRP JPK 10.80 cruiser/racer designed by J. Valer, skipped by Quintin & Trentesaux with a French crew.

In what regards winners it was probably the more international S2H ever with an American boat taking line honors and two French boats taking two of the 5 IRC divisions and that can only be a good thing since it will create an incentive for more non Australian teams to come to race the S2H, making it a bigger race.

A last word to the Italians of Maserati, the VOR 70ft that for a long time were racing head to head with 100ft Ragamuffin leading their division, till the moment the light winds arrived and then they started to lose ground rapidly.

It turns out that they were on a very low budget, they sailed the boat to Australia to race and they did not have a Code 0. That's why on the very light winds they stayed almost dead on the water while Ragamuffin flying a big code 0 went away quickly.
can you work out how many boats are in each Division? And what does each Division mean? Which one is the 'cruising' Division?
__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2015, 06:23   #383
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
can you work out how many boats are in each Division? And what does each Division mean? Which one is the 'cruising' Division?
That would be a long answer. The truth is that there should be already a world handicap system and there is not yet. The two most accurate ones are IRC and ORCI, being IRC by far the more used but with ORCI growing quickly.

The authorities of the this two handicap systems initiated works some years ago for unifying them creating a true world handicap system but that seems to have gone against installed interests and long established fleets and the works seem to have stalled.

The main handicap system on the S2H is the IRC and it is on IRC that it is found the winner of the race but there is also classifications on ORCI, PHS, Corinthian and Cruising, a bit of a mess in what concerns my opinion.

For me ORCI is the rating system that is evolving faster regarding a better evaluation of boat performances and their rating, but it has only 3 divisions and that is clearly insufficient in what regard Ocean racing. On that point IRC is better with 5 divisions.

On ORCI, unlike on IRC generally they don't look for an overall winner between different divisions (and that makes sense, as I had already explained) and there are three world champions on ORCI, one for each division.

As I said the rating rules not being unified creates a bit of a mess and even if results on the different ratings are not very different they are different enough to create different winners on a race and to increase the confusion the boats are not obliged to be inscripted on the different ratings.

On ORCI, if we would consider the overall results to determine the race leader, the race would be won by the S&S 34 Quikpoint Azzurro, being Balance, the one that won on overall on IRC, the 2nd. But the two French boats, that won their divisions on IRC, were not inscribed on ORCI, so if they were inscribed any of the two could be overall winners too and I suspect that if that was the case the winner in ORCI would be Courier Leon, the JPK 10.80, that beat Quickpoint Azzurro on the same IRC division.

From the 77 boats that finished the race, 59 were inscribed on IRC, 32 in ORCI, 15 in PHS, 24 on Corinthian and only one in the cruising class. The same boat could be inscribed in several classes.

Regarding IRC and divisions these are the 5 divisions that are normally constituted according to different IRC handicaps:
Appendix II - Classes and Class Flags | general-conditions
But regarding the handicaps that are considered for the race there seems to be some differences, probably they are considering special Australian regulations:
Standings - Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2015

According with "normal" IRC divisions the S&S 34 with an IRC rating of 0.926 should not be racing on the same division as the JPK 10.80 (1.045) and that would make all the sense giving the very different performance of the two boats. I believe each of them deserved a victory in different divisions.

Considering IRC divisions, finished the race 6 boat on division 0, 6 retired. On the Division 1 finished 7, 8 retired. On division 2, 22 finished the race, 3 retired. On the Division 3, 11 finished the race 4 retired and on the the Division 4, 13 finished the race and 3 retired.

Regarding the cruising division the main difference is that they can use the engine:

RRS 42: A boat in the Cruising Division may, from two hours after its starting signal use its engine for propulsion. That use must cease prior to the boat finishing. Engine hours and miles covered under engine must be logged

Here you have the race rules here:
http://static.cyca.com.au/media/2923...-nor-final.pdf
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2015, 06:58   #384
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Correction, on the Division 3 from 11 boats, 5 retired and not 4 as I posted above (cannot edit the post).
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2015, 16:15   #385
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Correction, on the Division 3 from 11 boats, 5 retired and not 4 as I posted above (cannot edit the post).
As always thank you for the time and knowledge Paulo. I'm glad I don't have to understand it as it would give me a headache trying to. I went and have re-look at the rules again and it reminds me why I have no interest in ever going in the race. By the time my boat and I are ready for my retirement I hope to have it close to a Cat 1 safety requirement. And there are other races like the Melbourne to Tamar, Devonport, Devenport to Hobart races etc.
__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2015, 16:27   #386
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

The last two to come in.. Well done on both finishing the race as another 31 didn't finish at all.

76 Shuguang Haiyang Roy Pan China


FINISHED


05:02:27:14 31 Dec, 03:27:14 PM
77 Myuna III Geoffrey Nixon VIC


FINISHED


05:20:09:30 01 Jan, 09:09:30 AM
__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2016, 10:33   #387
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
As always thank you for the time and knowledge Paulo. I'm glad I don't have to understand it as it would give me a headache trying to. I went and have re-look at the rules again and it reminds me why I have no interest in ever going in the race. By the time my boat and I are ready for my retirement I hope to have it close to a Cat 1 safety requirement. And there are other races like the Melbourne to Tamar, Devonport, Devenport to Hobart races etc.
Thanks for the nice words. In fact I am glad to find some that like to share with me my interest about racing and fast performance cruisers. The truth is that sailors complain about the little media exposure that sail race has, but as we can see on this forum few, cruisers are interested in sail race, as it would be expected, if they would like truly to sail, or sailing as a sport.

Making wishes that on the next year the Sydney-Hobart will be a sail race for all types of sailing boats, given the interest demonstrated here regarding multihull participation and results on a big race open for all sailboats I would like to share the results of the 2015 Fastnet:

Regarding Multihull participation, it is very reduced specially in what regards cruiser/racers or performance cruisers and none at all in what regards slower condo cats, showing that the will to race is not big among the multihull owners.

In fact strangely there was the same number of top racing multihulls (6) as of any other type of multihulls (6) being that among them 3 were Dazcats showing that the British brand of performance multihulls had made an effort to promote the brand this way and that their owners really like to race (they don't race only the Fastnet but also other British races.

As it was expected the big racing multihulls were faster than the big racing monohulls and the 131ft Spindrift 2 beat the 100ft Comanche by about 7 hours.

Regarding exotic non production extreme performance cruisers the bigger and very fast Paradox 63ft trimaran beat the JP 54 monohull by about 1 hour. But curiously the JP 54 monohull was more than an hour faster than the smaller of the racing multihulls, a Multi 50 trimaran.

Regarding production boats the small 35ft JPK 10.80 was faster than all performance cruising multihulls. To the faster among them, the Dazcat 1495, it won about 1 hour and to the slower, a Dazcat 46, it was faster for about 13 hours, off course everything in real time.

It was not only a fantastic result for the 10.80, but for JPK since the more cruising oriented JPK 38fter was only 20m slower than the faster cruiser/racer cat, the much bigger 50ft Dazcat and faster than all other while the little JPK 10.10, a small 33ft cruiser/racer, lost only in real time for the fastest non racing multihull (the Dazcat 1495) about 2 hours and a half and beat the big Dazcat 46 by 9 hours.

The effort of Dazcat in participating on this race deserves credit so for all the ones that don't know the boat, a very nice and fast cruising cat, here are some images of the brand new Dazcat 1495, the fastest production cat on the Fastnet:

On Dazcat they take racing very seriously:
"Dazcat 1150 Drama Queen competing in the Rolex Fastnet against Banque Populaire, MOD 70s and two other Dazcats - D10RT Paradox and D1395 Dazzla. Somewhat long but well worth it of you want a real sense of what Dazcats are about, and what racing means to us as a way of really testing our boats"

By the way I love the Dazcat 11.50, for me one of the nicer small cats and fast too,: it was only about one hour slower than the bigger 50ft Dazcat on the Fastnet:

Nothing to do with a Condo cat
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2016, 04:06   #388
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,331
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Just a sad note to add to this thread; The owner of Wild Oates XI, Bob Oatley (87), died today.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2016, 20:55   #389
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Boat: Island Packet 40
Posts: 1,373
Images: 7
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

He will be missed. What he did with the Wild Oats series of boats was central to the way the race has developed during the last few decades.
__________________
RaymondR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2016, 04:57   #390
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaymondR View Post
He will be missed. What he did with the Wild Oats series of boats was central to the way the race has developed during the last few decades.
Particularly on the last one it was truly remarkable the way he and his team had managed to maintain an old racing boat competitive with extreme alterations and modifications, from DSS (the first big yacht to use the system) to cutting the hull to add a new forward section and a larger stern.

It is particularly sad that on the last race Wild oats had to retire with a damaged sail and not being able to fight for victory. It seems to me the boat had a fair possibility of winning the race.

He is going to be remembered for what he managed to do in sailing particularly by his 8 times win on the S2H a feet that certainly would be very hard to match but also as a man that with 87 years of age maintained intact his big passion for sailing boats and for racing.
__________________

Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
sydney

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Crew Wanted: Hobart to Sydney in late May 2015 Amnesia II Crew Archives 12 17-04-2015 15:01
Crew Available: Sydney to Hobart/Melbourne to Hobart. stoffer123 Crew Archives 0 25-11-2012 21:52
And the Sydney Hobart winner is----- Factor General Sailing Forum 6 04-01-2009 15:01
Sydney to Hobart 07 Factor General Sailing Forum 60 02-01-2008 04:38
The Rules for a cruisers Sydney to Hobart ! cooper General Sailing Forum 2 28-12-2007 04:25



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:19.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.