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Old 22-12-2015, 22:42   #226
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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I have
"I don't think the CYCA had much to do with it"

Then I suggest you read it again and you will discover why those six people died and five boats sank, and what the CYCA had to do with it.

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Old 22-12-2015, 22:42   #227
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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But I'll point out that the Coroners office is the highest court in the land (at least in Australia) to determine 'the facts' on how a person died, or what led to the death, both in Australia and overseas in relation to it's citizens. It is a court of law and therefore it's findings are, when able to be determined considered 'fact' in law.
No and No. Most coroners are either equivalent of a magistrate and the state coroner is the equivalent of a and most are appointed as a, District Court Judge. Their findings can, and are, overturned by appellate courts of competent jurisdiction - eg Supreme Courts. These in turn may be reviewed by Full bench appellate courts in each state. Rarely indeed if ever will a coronial matter be subject to being granted leave to appeal from the High Court. The findings are that Findings, as facts they can be used to substantiate a criminal charge. And the coroners ridings or recommendations are not binding on anyone - absolutely no one at all.

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As to their abilities and qualifications. Here in Australia the Coroners office is often staffed with seconded police officers who work as the coroners assistant. There is no other organisation with the skills, training, experience in which to carry out such an investigation. I'd be interested if you could suggest one or any for that matter?
Broadly speaking this is correct, I often appeared to assist the coroner. Coroners themselves are lawyers, and coppers are coppers, all good people and skilled in their field, but not skilled in every field.
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Old 22-12-2015, 22:46   #228
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
"I don't think the CYCA had much to do with it"

Then I suggest you read it again and you will discover why those six people died and five boats sank, and what the CYCA had to do with it.

You are getting a bit strident here and that does no one any good service. I have read it, many many times, I use it and the Coronial Findings on the Malu Sara incident as bases for advising firms on managing risk and as examples of the swiss cheese theory of disasters. But i am not interested in a pissing contest with you. But please don't presume to know what I have and haven't done. Three people died because they cut a hole in the bottom of a liferaft, why they were in the life raft is a whole other issue, One died of conary failure, are we requiring ecgs of all participants, Glyn Charles died because he wasn't attached to his boat, he was a far superior yachtsman to me my many many many times, but he failed to be retained.
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Old 22-12-2015, 22:46   #229
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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No and No. Most coroners are either equivalent of a magistrate and the state coroner is the equivalent of a and most are appointed as a, District Court Judge. Their findings can, and are, overturned by appellate courts of competent jurisdiction - eg Supreme Courts. These in turn may be reviewed by Full bench appellate courts in each state. Rarely indeed if ever will a coronial matter be subject to being granted leave to appeal from the High Court. The findings are that Findings, as facts they can be used to substantiate a criminal charge. And the coroners ridings or recommendations are not binding on anyone - absolutely no one at all.

Broadly speaking this is correct, I often appeared to assist the coroner. Coroners themselves are lawyers, and coppers are coppers, all good people and skilled in their field, but not skilled in every field.
Gee, some of you can take things so literal,

I have not disputed the role of the applent courts. And so, yes you are correct there are 'higher' courts.. I was simply referring to the 'role' that a coroners court has and that it is a 'court' and it is to find 'fact' in deaths and disappearances.
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Old 22-12-2015, 22:49   #230
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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You are getting a bit strident here and that does no one any good service. I have read it, many many times, I use it and the Coronial Findings on the Malu Sara incident as bases for advising firms on managing risk and as examples of the swiss cheese theory of disasters. But i am not interested in a pissing contest with you. But please don't presume to know what I have and haven't done.
And your claiming I"m getting 'strident'

Look, this is a 'forum', if you post something, expect others to respond.. That's what it is for, to post discussions and the like.

And from Coroner John Abernethy that the Cruising Yacht Club of Australia had "abdicated its responsibility to manage the race". He wrote: "From what I have read and heard, it is clear to me that during this crucial time the race management team played the role of observers rather than managers and that was simply not good enough." That's just one little sentence out of the 300 odd pages I have. But no doubt you read that too.

If you don't want a response, don't post
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Old 22-12-2015, 23:09   #231
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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And your claiming I"m getting 'strident'

Look, this is a 'forum', if you post something, expect others to respond.. That's what it is for, to post discussions and the like.

And from Coroner John Abernethy that the Cruising Yacht Club of Australia had "abdicated its responsibility to manage the race". He wrote: "From what I have read and heard, it is clear to me that during this crucial time the race management team played the role of observers rather than managers and that was simply not good enough." That's just one little sentence out of the 300 odd pages I have. But no doubt you read that too.

If you don't want a response, don't post
I also read where the BOM was held to have committed gross errors in communication and understanding of how their information was received.

But what is your substantive point.
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Old 22-12-2015, 23:17   #232
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

In any event Boxing day looks fine and the overnight is 25 knot southerly coming in - hardly anything to get exited about. But still a few days out.
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Old 22-12-2015, 23:34   #233
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Re Coroner's Report.

Perhaps it should have just said that all vessels which go to sea should be designed, constructed and operated in the manner which best results in the survival of those aboard.

I remember when the enquiry was being carried out and it appeared to me that there was a lot of back scuttling going on.

I cruise up and down the east coast of Australia and it's my own damned fault if I do not listen to the weather reports and go out when I should not. They are broadcast every four hours 24/7/365 on HF and many local VHF stations broadcast them as well.

Whilst there were some boats damaged and abandoned many were not and some even made it to Hobart. Race organisers organise the start and finish and provided you don't infringe the rules what you do in between is your responsibility.

Start it on Boxing day the way they always do and if they have to heave too somewhere so be it.
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Old 22-12-2015, 23:36   #234
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Further to the previous:


Do we want to get to a situation where every boat has a lawyer standing by the helmsman to advise on liabilities?
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Old 23-12-2015, 00:39   #235
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Your expressing your personal opinion of the Coroners office here, which is fair enough, it's your personal opinion.

But I'll point out that the Coroners office is the highest court in the land (at least in Australia) to determine 'the facts' on how a person died, or what led to the death, both in Australia and overseas in relation to it's citizens. It is a court of law and therefore it's findings are, when able to be determined considered 'fact' in law.

As to their abilities and qualifications. Here in Australia the Coroners office is often staffed with seconded police officers who work as the coroners assistant. There is no other organisation with the skills, training, experience in which to carry out such an investigation. I'd be interested if you could suggest one or any for that matter?

There are other such enquiries, such as Parliamentry Committee's of Enquiry, which in Australia has a dismal record for their political bias. And it's certainly true, a PC frequently doens't have any experienced members. Then there are Royal Commissions, which do have the powers and authorities of courts and are always led by the judiciary. But, unlike PC's, Royal Commissions are led from the judiciary and thus it's safer to be without the bias of mere political commissions.

You are correct though that a Coroners findings don't make laws. They only determine the facts if able, and then make recommendations to the parliament or to other organisations like the Cruising Yacht Club of Australia in whom runs the race. The Coroners findings are however, accepted as the 'facts' of how a person died and what led to that death or disappearance.
Yes expressing my opinion as are you and the Coroner the only difference being the Coroner can call their opinion Fact in Law.
Plenty of innocent people around the world have or are paying the price for those in judicial power getting their facts wrong .
"Fact in Law" and the common old Fact...same thing???
But here is one fact and it is I am done with this one.
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Old 23-12-2015, 00:57   #236
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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I also read where the BOM was held to have committed gross errors in communication and understanding of how their information was received.

But what is your substantive point.
Yes, from memory I think the bom was criticized for not being independent enough and forceful in putting their concerns forward forcefully enough. I'm not in a place I can refresh my memory on the bom.
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Old 23-12-2015, 13:18   #237
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

The BOM didn't put it's forecasts forward forcefully enough? Was that the coroner's finding? What, are they supposed to shout?


This CYA crap is the reason the BOM forecasts now exaggerate the wind strength by 5 knots. And sailors now know this, so automatically deduct 5 knots from the forecast...


A forecast is an educated guess at what the weather will do. It's not the word of god. If the forecast says 40-50 knots, there's no point whinging if it sometimes hits 51 or 52 knots.
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Old 23-12-2015, 14:19   #238
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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The BOM didn't put it's forecasts forward forcefully enough? Was that the coroner's finding? What, are they supposed to shout?


This CYA crap is the reason the BOM forecasts now exaggerate the wind strength by 5 knots. And sailors now know this, so automatically deduct 5 knots from the forecast...


A forecast is an educated guess at what the weather will do. It's not the word of god. If the forecast says 40-50 knots, there's no point whinging if it sometimes hits 51 or 52 knots.
From memory, and I don't have time to read through it today as it's my last day of work until the new year, but as I recall the BOM had a relationship with the race organisers and despite the urgency they felt that their responsibility was only to advise the race organisers and once that was doen their task was finished. To answer your question of whether they were supposed to 'shout'? YES, when they had information that the weather was building into a massive dangerous storm, the worst in the 54 year history of the race. The coroner also recommended broadcasting the max wind strengths and the max wave heights, which they did not previously do. I don't know anything about now exaggerating 5 knotts?

They also now make it clearer, that the weather forcast can be as much as 40% higher than forcast. This was previously known, but not widely so.
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Old 23-12-2015, 19:12   #239
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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...... This is what skippers have been held to for generations; it is only recently that the idea of delegating some or all of that responsibility to an outside entity has arisen. This responsibility is what we cruisers must exercise each time we put to sea. I do not agree that the race committee has a "duty of care" to take up the responsibility.

And interestingly, it seems that the "duty of care" that they HAVE taken on is to place a whole lot of new regs on race participants, things involving mandatory training for crew and master, equipment, design. This shifts responsibility away from the committee, not to them.

Finally, they have not reduced the dependence upon media coverage for income supplement, and thus are reluctant to abandon a start, or even to delay it. To me, doing so would indicate that they were interested in overall safety of participants and less interested in publicity.

.... YMMV.

Jim
The race committee has a role to play in what regards to make sure the conditions are not plain dangerous to racers and that varies with the type of boats that enter a race.

It is usual to delay the start of a mini transat for some days to make sure they will not meet for sure conditions that can put the boats at risk.

Regarding a Transat for bigger racing boats, like Open 60's and big trimarans it is not usual because they can take a lot more than the mini racers without danger but I had seen some races delayed some days, just to make sure that they will not get for sure 50 or 60K winds and huge seas that can cause an unnecessary risk.

Those, special the last, are raced by professionals and all the boats are oceanic racing boats with much more safety features than cruiser racers or cruising boats.

On a race like the S2H it is more complicated since you will have many different types of boats, with different thresholds of safety in what regards what they can take safely and with many different types of sailors, from amateurs to very good amateurs to professionals.

The organization has to take that into account in what regards what is considered conditions that would endanger unnecessarily crews and in what regards to postpone a race that would meet with certitude those conditions.

Sure, the last responsibility is always from the skipper but if the organization persists in maintaining a race on a time schedule that they now that would be dangerous to the type of boats involved, they are being irresponsible and they will share a responsibility in what regards deadly accidents on that race.
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Old 25-12-2015, 14:08   #240
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Five hours to the start and it looks like it will be a great start to watch with lots of tacking to get out of the heads. A good ABC report.

Sydney to Hobart: Internationals line up to take down defending line honours champion Wild Oats XI - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
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