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Old 16-12-2015, 11:14   #166
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
No, that is not the same thing at all. Comanche uses not powered winches and he races under rule RRS 52. Like all boats he needs to use the engine to recharge batteries for other systems but he does not need to run its engine many hours a day.

The reason Comanche does not use powered winches has to do with being an Oceanic boat, doing Ocean races and crossing Oceans to race. Only for running the winches, if they were powered on a Transat they would need 1500L of diesel and much more for a Pacific crossing.

That would not only be an handicap in what regards weight but would make impossible for the boat to attempt a monohull non stop circumnavigation.

They can race in full human power mode, but they can use stored energy too.

From report on their single day record : Comanche was built with the ability to sail the boat using only human power, allowing the boat to qualify for record attempts like this. Stan and I decided at that time to sail the boat during the entire time period surrounding any possible 24 hour record in the manual power configuration that the WSSRC requires. Turns out this was probably our best decision of the race so far! -

Went to manual mode just before until after the run.


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Old 16-12-2015, 12:39   #167
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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They can race in full human power mode, but they can use stored energy too.

From report on their single day record : Comanche was built with the ability to sail the boat using only human power, allowing the boat to qualify for record attempts like this. Stan and I decided at that time to sail the boat during the entire time period surrounding any possible 24 hour record in the manual power configuration that the WSSRC requires. Turns out this was probably our best decision of the race so far! -

Went to manual mode just before until after the run.
..
Yes even if I suspect that the winches are fully manual and what can be used in a mechanic way is the canting keel system. That does not make disappear the disadvantage for a boat that runs continually the engine and that for that reason has not to have a heavy battery bank.

The surprising part in all of this is that the yacht’s winches will be manually powered. Six pedestals will be mounted with custom bevel boxes to create specific gear ratios for the power necessary to trim the enormous sails....
We did a study and found that we can produce as much or more power to the winches with 12 guys grinding than with push buttons. With manual winches, if we do a Transatlantic we can save up to a ton and a half of fuel and won’t have to keep the engine running all the time. Also, if we set a record it won’t have an asterisk next to it because of the powered winches. It’ll just be more fun to sail.

Clark Hatches A Record Slayer | Sailing World

Do you know if the winches can be used out of human power? I see them using the pedestals on the S-H:
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Old 16-12-2015, 13:09   #168
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

On the first previous race, the Solas big boat Challenge, Comanche did not show up and if he showed up it would be clearly beaten because light winds is the kingdom of Wild Oats.

The big surprise was the smaller 88ft Rambler that beat easily all other 100fts upwind and keep on the tail of Wild Oats and only downwind, in light winds, the bigger boat managed to won some few minutes. The 88ft Rambler was able to keep the two other 100ft boats behind till the finish line.

I am not sure if downwind with lots of wind the smaller Rambler would not be faster than Wild Oats. There is a new contender for the victory, or at least for 2th, since I don't believe that in stronger winds Comanche can be beaten, but in medium winds with some upwind sailing the "small" Rambler can have a word on that fight. Very interesting


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Old 16-12-2015, 14:36   #169
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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I dont have a link but the state of NSW is known to be the most litigious place on earth. (according to the mainstream media)

This claim is typically based on the numerous infrastructure and public private partnership failures. SA, my home state, is similar.

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Oh so wrong. Who would have thought the mainstream media was so unreliable.

See some comparative stats in the attached table which is drawn from a peer reviewed paper available here

Dry boring stuff

I would not assess NSW or SA as remarkably different to other jurisdictions in Australia, indeed I would anecdotally think, based on my experience that if there is a state more litigious it might be Victoria. But I cannot cite a reference for that, certainly not even the media.

On the semi substantive issue of motorsailers in the S2H Polux is grasping semantic straws. Yes most boats run a motor/generator some of the time, the fundamental principle is - IF the motor becomes unusable, does the boat have to withdraw immediately from the race, In many boats the answer is no. In OATS case the answer is a resounding yes. So tickle your fancies as much as you like who uses batteries and who runs what engines what proportion of the time.

Very Simple question - can a boat race without a running engine, not an engine running occasionally or batteries, but a permanently running engine, in OATS case the answer is NO. Makes it a motorsailer by any reasonable definition.
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Old 16-12-2015, 14:57   #170
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

And on another matter, any boat in the S2H that uses rubber bands on wool wraps on their Spins, and plenty will is committing an offence under NSW law. I trust the organising committee will seek to enforce to its participants that they may not use rubber bands and similar to wrap chutes.
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Old 16-12-2015, 15:52   #171
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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...
Very Simple question - can a boat race without a running engine, not an engine running occasionally or batteries, but a permanently running engine, in OATS case the answer is NO. Makes it a motorsailer by any reasonable definition.
You can call it what you want the problem here is that words have meanings and a Motorsailor is: "The motor sailer... is designed mainly to operate as a motorboat but is equipped with sail for auxiliary power".
Motor Sailer | Definition of Motor sailer by Merriam-Webster
motor sailer | motorboat | Britannica.com

It is a motorsailor only to you. Not a motorsailor in what concerns the accepted meaning of the term.
Why don't you just enjoy the biggest Australian sail race?
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Old 16-12-2015, 15:58   #172
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Very Simple question - can a boat race without a running engine, not an engine running occasionally or batteries, but a permanently running engine, in OATS case the answer is NO. Makes it a motorsailer by any reasonable definition.
Well, that's your definition, but few, and especially few 'authorities' organising races would agree with your 'reasonable' idea of a definition. In fact, I think you will struggle to find a link that supports your definition.

And your chart on litigation showing the US as the most litigious country in the world is not correct I'd suggest. Germany is number one. Australia I think ranks around 15 or something. The USA is about fifth.

doeLegal Journal: Global Litigation Rates: The US is Not the Leader
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Old 16-12-2015, 16:01   #173
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

At what point in the development of technology do we decide it's not real sailing any more? Most of this thread has been about this issue. Choose the line you draw, it's a personal thing.

The S2H is the CYCA's premier event and gets worldwide coverage. Do we seriously expect them to ban the hot rods from the fleet? Publicity is life when sponsorship pays the bills. We live in hope that the CYCA brings its coverage up to, say, Volvo standards. Their tracker on my android device has never been better than painful.

They can't take previous race records from the human-powered maxis of yore cos WOXI et al race a different division.

The corinthian entry is a beautiful idea, but since '98 the hoops to jump and expense involved getting to the start line have kept a lot of boats out. And if it does save lives, probably not a bad thing.

Personally, I would love to see a multi division starting with the rest of the fleet. Half a dozen 70-100ft weapon multis charging around Sydney harbour on the busiest day of the year would make a great spectacle totally spectacular.

The race course down to Hobart can be wild and woolly and you have to cross some shallow waters. It would be great to see how big multis and big maxis go head to head in the same conditions, over a period of several races. I'm not sure the result would be a foregone conclusion.
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Old 16-12-2015, 16:04   #174
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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And if it does save lives, probably not a bad thing.
Racing unmanned drones would save lives.
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Old 16-12-2015, 16:07   #175
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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. Do we seriously expect them to ban the hot rods from the fleet?
No. But if the rules didn't allow them to "sail" the way they do, the boats would be changed to comply.

Probably the only real difference would be that they'd be cheaper to build and they'd sail slower.
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Old 16-12-2015, 17:59   #176
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Best race in the Southern Hemisphere . Watched the start on our boat last year .AWESOME !!
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Old 16-12-2015, 18:04   #177
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Yes, all boats can use powered sail systems but only the cruising division can use engine for propulsion.

What do you think about the cruising division on the S-H?

To me it seems they are turning the S-H in a Rally, like the ARC, that has a racing division (no use of engine for propulsion) and a cruising division, similar to the one on the ARC. The main difference seems that on the ARC they allow multihulls.

There is also another odd point on the rules: Whatever the size or type of boat you need a crew of 6!!!! unless it is on the cruising division and then you only need 4.

On most top races there are now a special class for duo handed boats and one of the last editions of the Fastnet was won precisely by a duo sailed boat.

Why do you think they exclude the class and demand 6 as minimum to sail a sailboat? at the same time that they allow powered sailing systems that will make possible to sail effectively boats, even big boats, with smaller crews?
I love the fact there is a cruising catagory. It means it's possible one day I could participate (long shot givne the mods I'd need to make). But I don't like the idea of letting them use engines, no.. There are plenty of boats I could outsail, but few that I could out motor.

And I can see no logic to the reasoning with the crew numbers. It should be based IMO on size of vessel, not catagory. Four is enough for mine, six would be making it 'busy' and I think it would be unnecessary.
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Old 16-12-2015, 18:34   #178
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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I love the fact there is a cruising catagory. It means it's possible one day I could participate (long shot givne the mods I'd need to make). But I don't like the idea of letting them use engines, no.. There are plenty of boats I could outsail, but few that I could out motor.
..
Would not make more sense to create conditions to have, some days before, or some days after, a S2H only for amateurs, a big friendly race with all types of sailboats, except race boats and top racing sailors? I am not sure if it would not be as popular as the one for racers.

I say some days earlier or later and not at the same time because Ann says that there is a problem with place for the boats in Hobart and that is one of the reasons multihulls are not allowed.

Regarding popularity the French have big professional transats and circumnavigation races for top racing boats and top professional sailors but there is a big amateur race that is as popular as the big ones for professionals.

A Solo or Duo Transat. For entering you have to have more than 40 years old and not to be a professional neither having won any meaningful race recently. The boats are limited on the IRC rating, meaning they cannot be very big or very fast. Most opt for 30 to 35ft fast boats but some race in bigger slower boats (but as fast because bigger, with a similar IRC).

Talking about that just because it shows that a race with small boats and amateurs can be as popular as big professional races with top boats and top professional racers, but in my opinion it makes no sense to mix both.

If you have curiosity about that just go to the youtube and search Transquadra.

(I agree with you that using the engine for propulsion on a sail race does not make sense. That is for a rally)
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Old 16-12-2015, 18:47   #179
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Would not make more sense to create conditions to have, some days before, or some days after, a S2H only for amateurs, a big friendly race with all types of sailboats, except race boats and top racing sailors? I am not sure if it would not be as popular as the one for racers.

I say some days earlier or later and not at the same time because Ann says that there is a problem with place for the boats in Hobart and that is one of the reasons multihulls are not allowed.

Well, that is true of in regards to mulithulls, given their width. But lets keep in mind that they don't try to get everyone in at the docks either. There really only interested in the big maxi's which I suspect again is for media and publicitiy purposes.

Regarding popularity the French have big professional transats and circumnavigation races for top racing boats and top professional sailors but there is a big amateur race that is as popular as the big ones for professionals.

A Solo or Duo Transat. For entering you have to have more than 40 years old and not to be a professional neither having won any meaningful race recently. The boats are limited on the IRC rating, meaning they cannot be very big or very fast. Most opt for 30 to 35ft fast boats but some race in bigger slower boats (but as fast because bigger, with a similar IRC).

Talking about that just because it shows that a race with small boats and amateurs can be as popular as big professional races with top boats and top professional racers, but in my opinion it makes no sense to mix both.

If you have curiosity about that just go to the youtube and search Transquadra.

(I agree with you that using the engine for propulsion on a sail race does not make sense. That is for a rally)
I'm conscious that the big 'maxi's' bring the spectators and media interest. Just look at the fact that the nightly coverages on tv deminishes once the maxi's finish and from then on it's just news reports in news segments. Really quite pathetic.

And whilst the cruising boats have to start behind the bigger racers, there is no reason why they can't start on the same day. Sydney Harbour is big enough. Even if they limit spectator craft.
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Old 16-12-2015, 19:16   #180
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Include Multis
Start a second race before or after
Change the rules of running motors,number of crew etc etc
Or
Just enjoy it for what it is.
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