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Old 15-12-2015, 05:50   #136
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Originally Posted by Markhunter1097 View Post
Every boat that races in the Sydney to Hobart race runs their engine, not all the time like the big boats do, but they get run a lot, and always when I'm off watch sleeping a meter from the engine box. Noisy, but at least it is warm and you have a chance to dry out. Diesel doesn't taste very nice and racing boats always seem to have it sloshing in the bilge, well maybe only the dodgy ones I've sailed, so don't leave your wet jacket anywhere that it can get covered, otherwise you will end up licking off your jacket as you try and cover your face from the wind cold and spray. Sailors don't really care about the engine, they are a part of every sailboat, we all go for the fun and time out with a crew, and a beer/scallop pie at the other end. The cruising division of th Hobart rac sounds fun, you are allowed to engage the prop...



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Old 15-12-2015, 06:08   #137
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Welcome to the XXI century and to power assisted sailing

Contemporary tendencies in sailing in what regards cruising are much about that. That's why today boats with 60ft and over can and are sailed by a couple and that's why a 80 year old sailor is still able to sail a fast cruising boat alone.
Exactly, good for cruising. Not for racing, IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux
Of course I am not talking about exaggerations like the Wild Oats case, that chose to run the engine full time instead of having a battery bank
You see this is where you lose me. The designers/Bob of WO11 decided to have pretty much all systems powered. To enable this they NEEDED a decent sized engine to provide the power constantly. It wasn't a choice between a battery bank or an engine. I think you're missing the point here, as fine as it may be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux
From there to say that Wild Oats is a motorsailer there is a huge difference but I agree with your definition of power assisted sailboat that is something that all modern ocean sailing cruising and racing yachts over 50ft are.
I think that once you understand that they NEEDED the engine and that a battery bank was never an option to provide for their high power needs the rest falls into place.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux
And the ones that think that there are ocean racing multihulls that are able to do this while crossing an ocean are wrong. This type of things makes the news and the best I had heard till know regards multi-hulls is about 80% reliable on renewable energy sources and 20% on the engine.
Are you now refuting the article you quoted? Not because you've done any reading but because you haven't seen it mentioned in the news....riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggghhhtt. I'm jealous, I wish I lived in your world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux
Anyway the canting keelers that race the Vendee Globe use already not much the engine for charging batteries: on a full circumnavigation they "waste" between 100 to 150L of diesel.
Yes, and they can raise the sails without the engine running so apples with oranges, yet again. Your favourite comparison

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Old 15-12-2015, 08:54   #138
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Originally Posted by tp12 View Post
You see this is where you lose me. The designers/Bob of WO11 decided to have pretty much all systems powered. To enable this they NEEDED a decent sized engine to provide the power constantly. It wasn't a choice between a battery bank or an engine. I think you're missing the point here, as fine as it may be.

I think that once you understand that they NEEDED the engine and that a battery bank was never an option to provide for their high power needs the rest falls into place.
The size of the engine is a pretty normal one for that size of boat and no, they did not chose to install a battery bank because it was not possible or difficult but because that gives them an advantage in what regards weight and therefore performance.

I don't think that advantage fair and I think it should not be possible by the rules. Something like that happened for many decades on the America's cup regarding American boats that had not to cross the Atlantic and had to be more beefy on account of that than the challenger.

Here something similar happens with Comanche having to cross Oceans to arrive here, not being a practical solution to have the engine running full time. The rules should not favor a boat over other but then Wild Oats is an Australian boat and this is an Australian race.
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Are you now refuting the article you quoted? ..
No, the article I posted is one of the two I had posted already where it was said that all boats on a Transat used the engine to charge batteries except a 40class racer monohull.

The only difference is that on a Mod70 the hydraulics can be run by Gorillas at the pedestal. As this was only a race with the two aboard I don't know if it was the case neither it is important because they stated that they need to run the engine anyway to charge batteries for all other systems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tp12 View Post
Exactly, good for cruising. Not for racing, IMO.
I don't understand that one. Why not have assisted systems for racing if they make you sail faster and with less crew? The objective of sail racing is not sailing faster using wind as propulsion mode?

That's about as saying that we cannot use mechanical assisted systems or telemetry on top racing cars.

Welcome to the XXI century
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Old 15-12-2015, 09:03   #139
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Bob became a multibillionaire by bringing automated techniques to the wine industry. I am sure there were plenty of old farts who said wine was not wine when you make it with a motor, instead of by hand, but Bob went ahead anyway.

Some people simply cannot cope with the relentless passage of technology.
Something wrong here. It was not made with the hands but with the feet

But you are right about that I still remember people saying that wine should be made in casks not in stainless steel deposits and that mattered to the quality.
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Old 15-12-2015, 09:11   #140
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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I think you've misunderstood RD, I don't believe Polux, or most people for that matter, realised that WO11 needs her engine running all the time. Polux doesn't understand the hydraulic systems on the other boats he's saying need the engine too...

It seems a bit wrong to me that you need to run the engine to put the sails up on a racing sailboat and then keep it running to trim the sails etc.
..
Only the ones that don't like sail racing and those don't car about that. It even comes on Wikipedia:

"All mechanical systems onboard are powered by a continually running Diesel engine. The design decision was made to exclude manual backup systems and the boat is entirely dependent on the auxiliary. This severely limits the boats endurance as it cannot be sailed once the diesel fuel is exhausted. This design compromise was seen as worthwhile as it allowed a large amount of additional weight to be avoided and allowed a higher ballast ratio for a given displacement."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Oats_XI
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Old 15-12-2015, 09:39   #141
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Seems a weak argument to not allow cats or tris.

Must be those over inflated maxi egos that cant stand competition.
I've lost interest in the wild oats show.
Yes I agree. Comanche come to give a bit more interest to the race and in my opinion it is still a great race but it risks to become just a regional race.

The problem has I see it is that it is needed a clear separation between offshore amateur and professional races, between races for race boats and races for cruiser racers.

This happened long ago on car racing with two different types of professional races with F1 on one side and WRC on the other.

Something similar has to be done regarding sailing where the F1 are clearly America's cup boats but in what regards cars that race on the same streets where other cars circulate (WRC), meaning boats that sail on the same non protected waters where other sailboats sail, there is nothing comparable to a world championship for top racers...and it should. All the famous races around the world should be a part of that championship.

The major difficulty regarding that is sponsorship. France seems to be the only country where there are conditions for top ocean racing boats not to be owned by millionaires but by the sponsors and the racing teams constituted exclusively by the best professionals....but the crisis have not made things easier the Mod 70 project (big multihulls) died with it and for the last Vendee Globe all existing competitive Open 60's are already booked but there is not enough sponsor money to build more new boats (3 million euros).
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Old 15-12-2015, 13:49   #142
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Something wrong here. It was not made with the hands but with the feet

But you are right about that I still remember people saying that wine should be made in casks not in stainless steel deposits and that mattered to the quality.
And the big big fuss when they replaced corks with twist caps
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Old 15-12-2015, 14:03   #143
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Probably you did no translate well the French. The hydraulics on big multihulls can be run by "gorillas" at a pedestal or by mechanical powered systems, depending on the boat, the race rules and the size of the crew but that is not the only need of energy a multihull sailboat has.

Regarding the last professional raced transat with many monohulls and multihulls what I posted was that all boat on the race had to run the engine to charge batteries except a class 40 monohull race boat that had no diesel aboard and that had an electric engine only. The only ones that for safety reasons and by the race rules have to start with full diesel deposits are the big multihulls (Mod70):

"Que ce soit pour les Multi50 ou les MOD70, l’éolienne et le moteur thermique demeurent les deux sources d’énergie principales....Sur la majorité des bateaux au départ de la Transat Jacques Vabre, le moteur thermique est largement utilisé.

Les marins le font tourner entre 2 et 3 heures par 24 heures histoire de garder un niveau de batteries suffisant.

Si, seuls les MOD70, monotypes, sont dans l’obligation de remplir totalement leur réservoir de 70 litres, pour les IMOCA, les Class40 et les Multi50 chacun gère, fait son choix, d’où l’importance de multiplier les sources d’énergie. Mais tous sont d’avis qu’il ne serait pas raisonnable de quitter le port avec trop de peu de gasoil, sait on jamais… Damien Seguin, sur son Class40 Des pieds et des Mains est le seul à avoir opté pour le moteur 100% électrique alimenté par une pile au lithium et au phosphate. Un bateau dans l’air du temps…"


L'énergie à bord : une question d'équilibre | Transat Jacques Vabre 2015 : Le Havre - Itajai | Octobre 2015

And once again, you don't seem to be capable of seeing the difference between occasionally running an engine or genset to power communication equipment, (probably MANDATORY communication equipment) and running a massive diesel all the time to run the sailing systems.

As I pointed out the World Sailing Speed Record Council makes the distinction. Boats with powered sailing systems are in a different category. 21c.

None of the big multihull records are in this category.
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Old 15-12-2015, 14:08   #144
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

I'm looking for sponsors. I reckon I can build a "sailing boat" with a mechanically driven rotating keel, (or two) with maybe a 200 hp engine (or two) that can beat Wild Oats to Hobart, probably 7 years out of ten.


It'll be very easy to sail too. Probably only need a two man crew.
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Old 15-12-2015, 14:12   #145
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Originally Posted by Markhunter1097 View Post
Every boat that races in the Sydney to Hobart race runs their engine, not all the time like the big boats do, but they get run a lot,

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Why? I wouldn't have thought electrical power demands would be that high, given they hand steer all the way, and I doubt the fridge would be running?

I guess they take most of the batteries out?
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Old 15-12-2015, 14:17   #146
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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And once again, you don't seem to be capable of seeing the difference between occasionally running an engine or genset to power communication equipment, (probably MANDATORY communication equipment) and running a massive diesel all the time to run the sailing systems.

As I pointed out the World Sailing Speed Record Council makes the distinction. Boats with powered sailing systems are in a different category. 21c.

None of the big multihull records are in this category.

Well, personally I don't see any difference. And 'electric' winches are part of a 'sailing' system too.

The main dispute between you and Polux seems to me to be that you are insisting that the 'power' requirements of WO are impossible to be accomodated within a battery bank and Polux has stated that WO deliberately dispensed with a battery bank for weight advantage.

From the link he's provided and from what I can research, Polux is correct. They deliberately dispensed with a massive battery bank and decided to run the engine 24/7. Other than that, I'm not sure what our disputing.
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Old 15-12-2015, 14:24   #147
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

But the tri's, and the smaller boats in the S-H don't use electric winches either. The boats are human/wind powered.


Using electric winches would put them in the "Powered sailing systems" category. They aren't.


Seriously? You don't see the difference between communications systems (again which are probably mandatory requirements) and sailing systems?
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Old 15-12-2015, 14:40   #148
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

f. Powered sailing systems. In addition, any of these record categories can also apply to a vessel using powered sailing systems (see 21c.) provided a claim exceeds any corresponding World Record. These Powered Records are listed separately and can never be regarded as the 'outright record' for a course.


21. c. Powered sailing systems
A vessel is so categorized if any of the sailsetting, reefing, furling or sheeting functions employ mechanical power. Natural forces must always remain the sole means of propulsion.



http://www.sailspeedrecords.com/the-courses-offshore
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Old 15-12-2015, 16:03   #149
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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And once again, you don't seem to be capable of seeing the difference between occasionally running an engine or genset to power communication equipment, (probably MANDATORY communication equipment) and running a massive diesel all the time to run the sailing systems.

As I pointed out the World Sailing Speed Record Council makes the distinction. Boats with powered sailing systems are in a different category. 21c....

But the tri's, and the smaller boats in the S-H don't use electric winches either. The boats are human/wind powered.
Using electric winches would put them in the "Powered sailing systems" category. They aren't.

f. Powered sailing systems. In addition, any of these record categories can also apply to a vessel using powered sailing systems (see 21c.) provided a claim exceeds any corresponding World Record. These Powered Records are listed separately and can never be regarded as the 'outright record' for a course.
21. c. Powered sailing systems
A vessel is so categorized if any of the sailsetting, reefing, furling or sheeting functions employ mechanical power. Natural forces must always remain the sole means of propulsion.
...
I am confused. Wild Oats is not applying for any record. The boat is making a sail boat race.

All races have their proper rules and I don't see what the rules in what regards absolute sail records have to do with a particular sail race and its rules.

I only found ridiculous some claims that were made here regarding calling Wild Oats a motorsailer.

I have already said that I find unfair the advantage Wild Oats have for using permanently its engine not because that will gave it any advantage in what regards sailing, towards other boats that use mechanical or hydraulic systems, but because dispensing a battery bank will allow it to be lighter.

You say that the tri's in the SH don't use electric winches. Tri's are trimarans? I thought that multihulls were not allowed on the S-H.
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Old 15-12-2015, 16:46   #150
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

You know, the race committee already limits the number of entrants. Maybe that's why they don't have two divisions, one for monohulls and one for multihulls. No room in Con Dock for all those multis--they'd have to (gasp!) anchor out! They'd have to have room for at least 4 divisions, maxis and others; super fast and less fast multis.

Think that might float?

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