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Old 03-12-2007, 06:09   #1
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Sydney to Hobart 07

And the winner is......

A boat that will run its motor all the way to Hobart. Its so terribly sad that one of the world's great races will be won (at least in terms of line honors) by a boat that has to run an engine all the way to manage the canting keel.

So sad, quite frankly I cannot countenance how on earth they can say they are still sail boats with a straight face.
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Old 03-12-2007, 06:53   #2
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Factor, showing your prejudice against lead? Do you discuss/debate designs or just denigrate anything that does not fit your idea?
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Old 03-12-2007, 11:18   #3
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Running the engine has nothing to do with it any more than running a compressor or genset - none propel the boat.
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Old 03-12-2007, 11:23   #4
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none propel the boat.
Yep, it's still a sailboat. You have to have some for of a motor system. I doubt if they will run the engine all the way however. Once it is canted, it can stay in position. They only need to start and move keel and stop again.
But whats the boat Factor??? You have provided no link.
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Old 03-12-2007, 14:30   #5
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I understand where Factor is coming from, and I think that boats that use their engines to provide power to their canting keels (and powered winches, where applicable) should have a separate class to those who still rely on good old "handraulic" muscle.

Nevertheless, the boats are there, you can't exactly "uninvent" the technology. They are big and beautiful, and speaking as someone who has been sailing up the derwent in about 15 knots of breeze, doing about 8 knots with cracked sheets, and beeen overtaken by a 98 foot boat at fairly close proximity, doing 18 knots, they are an amazing sight to behold.

Bear in mind, though, that although the media tends to focus on the super-maxis and their quest for line-honours, the real race, for those who love sailboat racing, is about class/handicap honours. The super-maxis rarely clean up there - often older style boats can still pull of a win!
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Old 03-12-2007, 14:43   #6
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Weyalan, where do you draw the line? Deny running the engine to charge batteries? Deny using batteries for sailing instruments or running lights?

I'm sure they could connect the coffee grinders to a hyd pump to swing the keel but if the rules allow an engine to power the pump, why bother?

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I understand where Factor is coming from, and I think that boats that use their engines to provide power to their canting keels (and powered winches, where applicable) should have a separate class to those who still rely on good old "handraulic" muscle.

Nevertheless, the boats are there, you can't exactly "uninvent" the technology. They are big and beautiful, and speaking as someone who has been sailing up the derwent in about 15 knots of breeze, doing about 8 knots with cracked sheets, and beeen overtaken by a 98 foot boat at fairly close proximity, doing 18 knots, they are an amazing sight to behold.

Bear in mind, though, that although the media tends to focus on the super-maxis and their quest for line-honours, the real race, for those who love sailboat racing, is about class/handicap honours. The super-maxis rarely clean up there - often older style boats can still pull of a win!
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Old 03-12-2007, 14:52   #7
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Factor, showing your prejudice against lead? Do you discuss/debate designs or just denigrate anything that does not fit your idea?
It's got nothing to do with lead. The majority of the boats in the race don't need to run their engines, and they all have keels and ballast, so lead has nothing to do with it.

Alan, the canting keel boats need to run their engines to operate the keels, and they run them all the way to Hobart. There was a report that one of them had lost engine power and was unable to gybe a couple of years ago.

While the engines are not used DIRECTLY to propel the boats, they are used to make them sail faster - without the engine they would be slower.

That makes them motorsailers as far as I'm concerned.

So if they are allowing motorboats in the race, why not multihulls? (The answer to that question is obvious)
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Old 03-12-2007, 14:54   #8
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Weyalan, where do you draw the line? Deny running the engine to charge batteries? Deny using batteries for sailing instruments or running lights?

I'm sure they could connect the coffee grinders to a hyd pump to swing the keel but if the rules allow an engine to power the pump, why bother?
Simple - do not allow the sailing systems to be powered.
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Old 03-12-2007, 16:58   #9
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Weyalan, where do you draw the line? Deny running the engine to charge batteries? Deny using batteries for sailing instruments or running lights?

I'm sure they could connect the coffee grinders to a hyd pump to swing the keel but if the rules allow an engine to power the pump, why bother?
I'm not exactly the person to be drawing the line, but having said that, I see it as follows:

Using your batteries to provide power for safety equipment is ok; a no brainer, really. Everyone should display nav lights, etc. Having battery power for your radios; ditto. These are a safety thing and are of advantage to all boats, irregardless of size / shape etc. Using your motor to charge you batteries is a similar thing, you don't gain any direct advantage as a result; it allows you to sail a bit safer for a bit longer. All boats in the Syd-Hob are required to have a motor, not letting them charge their batteries would be like saying you aren't allowed to look in your wing mirrors in a car...

Even using battery power for navigation equipment is ok with me, because it is (i) a safety thing,& (ii) it is an advantage for any boat.

The point of using mechanically driven keel and winch technology is that it gives these yachts a sailing advantage that is not available to other yachts. If Maximus, Wild Oats, Alf Romeo, Lopard et. al. did use their coffee grinders to provide the power for their winches and keels, I would be 100% happy for them to compete in the same class as other boats, but they don't so I'm not.

P.S. Please don't think I dislike the super-maxis; far from it, I love them. I think that they are an important part of the Sydney-Hobart mystique/character, I just think that they should have their own class, is all.
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Old 03-12-2007, 17:18   #10
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Apparently, It's the source of power for the keel which concerns you. Not sure how unanimous that distinction might be.
If I can suggest an alternative view, it's more about racing than technology with the exception of the AC race which is all about technology.
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Old 03-12-2007, 17:39   #11
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I guess to me it is such a trivial thing that it does not really matter. We are, after all, talking about 15 inches of throw on a 3 inch cylinder.

If we were to talk about hydraulic winches in a tacking dual that may be different but maybe not.
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Old 03-12-2007, 18:14   #12
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A boat that will run its motor all the way to Hobart. ...to manage the canting keel.

So sad, quite frankly I cannot countenance how on earth they can say they are still sail boats with a straight face.
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Factor, showing your prejudice .... denigrate ....
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While the engines are not used DIRECTLY to propel the boats, they are used to make them sail faster...
That makes them motorsailers as far as I'm concerned.
I sailed with a bloke for a race and he had installed an electric pump to move fuel between the port and starboard tanks specifically to ballast in a race where it was not allowed.

I danced on the foredeck, main deck, and mizzen deck till I was pooped singing "You're a friggin cheat! You're a friggin cheat!" Do you know what effect it had on him? Absolutely none at all.

Needless to say I got off his tub after that leg of the race.

There are some in the racing fraternity that will do anything to win, and I gotta firmly stick my foot on terra firma and say that running an engine all the way to Hobart is cheating.

Sydney Ė Hobart isnít a long race, only 635 miles, and some can do it in a day and a half when the wind is in exactly the right quarter and the boat weighs the same as a stripped down trailer sailer. But the Hobart race is more than that. Itís a race where achieving a finish only once is nothing. Its being able to do it when Bass Strait is a cow and funnel effect of waves sliding up from the southwest from the Antarctica and are squeezed between the Mainland and Tasmania and having a counter set against them and then a storm cell pops up. Sailing that and finishing is what the Hobart race is all about, not some mamby-pamby rich boy with a wiggly keel run by the donk.
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Old 03-12-2007, 18:15   #13
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The point is, they go faster because their engines are running. Without their engines running they would be slower. It's not complicated is it?

If they are allowed to run their engines to go faster, then why not the other boats? Just let 'em all motor all the way down. In fact why bother with all the expensive sails and rigs? Spend all that money on bigger motors I say.

Think of the new sponsorship opportunities - "Powered by Ford" etc etc..
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Old 03-12-2007, 18:22   #14
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If the rules allow the engine to be run to power hyd then it is not cheating. If you brick to the high side after every tack then you are cheating unless the rules allow. If the rule allows, you do it. If the rule allows it and you don't do it you loose.

Your skipper moving fuel was cheating, good for you to leave him. It says a lot about you.

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I sailed with a bloke for a race and he had installed an electric pump to move fuel between the port and starboard tanks specifically to ballast in a race where it was not allowed.

I danced on the foredeck, main deck, and mizzen deck till I was pooped singing "You're a friggin cheat! You're a friggin cheat!" Do you know what effect it had on him? Absolutely none at all.

Needless to say I got off his tub after that leg of the race.

There are some in the racing fraternity that will do anything to win, and I gotta firmly stick my foot on terra firma and say that running an engine all the way to Hobart is cheating.

Sydney Ė Hobart isnít a long race, only 635 miles, and some can do it in a day and a half when the wind is in exactly the right quarter and the boat weighs the same as a stripped down trailer sailer. But the Hobart race is more than that. Itís a race where achieving a finish only once is nothing. Its being able to do it when Bass Strait is a cow and funnel effect of waves sliding up from the southwest from the Antarctica and are squeezed between the Mainland and Tasmania and having a counter set against them and then a storm cell pops up. Sailing that and finishing is what the Hobart race is all about, not some mamby-pamby rich boy with a wiggly keel run by the donk.
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Old 03-12-2007, 18:59   #15
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Ladieeeeezzz and gentlemen, start your engines for the Sydney to Hobart *cough* "Yacht" *choke* race!
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