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Old 22-05-2016, 17:33   #46
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Re: Survival ??} Loss of: Rudder, Sails, Eng., Low on Drinking Water, etc.

Relative to the water issue, our previous Insatiable had only two 25 gal. tanks. Even on our longest passages, a tad over 3 weeks, we arrived with water in the tanks. We carried a sunshower, full on departure, and a 5 gal. jug "emergency" supply. We used salt water, that was plumbed to the galley for washing dishes (rinse, only, w. fresh), and also salt water for toilet flushing.

I agree with Snow Petrel, 25 gal. for 1000 mi. is not a worry. For personal cleaning, teach yourself to use only 1 measured cup of water. If necessary, every 3rd day or so, but it is easy to use salt water for a complete bath, and just a little fresh to rinse your hair. It is simply not a problem for 10 days (a slow boat).

One needs to regard the water for personal hydration only is the need; bathing is a luxury. You can also completely do your dishes in salt water, and just store up the salty towels and laundry till you arrive in port.


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Old 23-05-2016, 18:22   #47
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Re: Survival ??} Loss of: Rudder, Sails, Eng., Low on Drinking Water, etc.

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Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
^^ I would beg to differ with you on this Thomm225, loss of a rudder well offshore is usually a big problem. This is very different to sailing a hobie cat inshore. With good seamanship, preparations, and luck it can be handled without outside assistance, but it is a serious problem.
You are totally correct.

I'm simply saying if you have a bit of experience sailing without a rudder you won't freak out as much as a guy that motors a lot and is totally dependent on the rudder.

Some cruisers that have sailed thousands and thousands of miles have never held a sailboat still on the start line using mostly the sails....in winds from 5-21 knots

Think about it....

You may not be able to sail the exact direction you want to go, but you can sail especially with a full keel boat.

You may even have to wait a few days for the right wind but it can be done especially if it's second nature to you.

Unlike the cruiser that motors 5 miles out before putting his sails up

http://www.hshyachts.com/html/steeri...ut_a_rudd.html
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Old 24-05-2016, 00:48   #48
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Re: Survival ??} Loss of: Rudder, Sails, Eng., Low on Drinking Water, etc.

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
You are totally correct.

I'm simply saying if you have a bit of experience sailing without a rudder you won't freak out as much as a guy that motors a lot and is totally dependent on the rudder.

Some cruisers that have sailed thousands and thousands of miles have never held a sailboat still on the start line using mostly the sails....in winds from 5-21 knots

Think about it....

You may not be able to sail the exact direction you want to go, but you can sail especially with a full keel boat.

You may even have to wait a few days for the right wind but it can be done especially if it's second nature to you.

Unlike the cruiser that motors 5 miles out before putting his sails up

steering a boat without a rudder
Extrapolating from a beach cat to a typical offshore cruising boat is a big leap IMO, and I'm not so sure that the skills transfer too much.

But it is often possible to rig some means of steering, even on a modern Benehuntalina type yacht. A friend of ours left Cairns for the Louisiades in a mid sized Bavaria. Outside the reef pass, the rudder fell off... totally! But they managed to not only steer the boat with a drogue on a bridle rigged to the genoa winches, they came back through the pass and returned to Cairns, some fifty miles of reef strewn water!. Bloody good show IMO!

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Old 24-05-2016, 18:38   #49
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Re: Survival ??} Loss of: Rudder, Sails, Eng., Low on Drinking Water, etc.

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Extrapolating from a beach cat to a typical offshore cruising boat is a big leap IMO, and I'm not so sure that the skills transfer too much.

But it is often possible to rig some means of steering, even on a modern Benehuntalina type yacht. A friend of ours left Cairns for the Louisiades in a mid sized Bavaria. Outside the reef pass, the rudder fell off... totally! But they managed to not only steer the boat with a drogue on a bridle rigged to the genoa winches, they came back through the pass and returned to Cairns, some fifty miles of reef strewn water!. Bloody good show IMO!

Jim
Actually it's not a big leap.

Go race a beach cat and see where you finish with all your sailing experience.

That may be a stretch though since it's a bit off subject and you are too old now.

I happen to be a tech though (manager of tech's now) that has maintained about everything you can think of from Firefighter trainers, ATC Radar IFF, to complex flight simulators plus simulators for every aviation school rate the navy has. When these trainer go down my company loses money. So we have to improvise at times.

I can sail a boat without a rudder ....... believe it.

This is why CF is so much fun. I was having trouble sleeping a few nights ago and considered other ideas besides just sailing the boat with sails alone since I knew most cruisers would consider that impossible even though my 15 year old son sailed off the beach without the rudders down also

My boat has a 12' plus boom. I could remove that and use it as a rudder with one of my kayak paddles attached to the end of it. I have 4 paddle ends

One of my beach cats had a boomless main.......my Nacra 6.0

Beachcat experience can help

I also have 5 anchors. Two large with maybe 600' of rode and chain.....see where I'm going. I'd get the boat in one way or another. I also have 3 telescoping forespars onboard.

I've been stranded as a 17 year old on a 14' boat 5 miles out in the Chesapeake Bay and have over the years realized that my friends and I would have been dead if the weather had been bad. I've been considering options ever since
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Old 24-05-2016, 22:37   #50
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Re: Survival ??} Loss of: Rudder, Sails, Eng., Low on Drinking Water, etc.

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Actually it's not a big leap.

Go race a beach cat and see where you finish with all your sailing experience.

That may be a stretch though since it's a bit off subject and you are too old now.

I happen to be a tech though (manager of tech's now) that has maintained about everything you can think of from Firefighter trainers, ATC Radar IFF, to complex flight simulators plus simulators for every aviation school rate the navy has. When these trainer go down my company loses money. So we have to improvise at times.

I can sail a boat without a rudder ....... believe it.

This is why CF is so much fun. I was having trouble sleeping a few nights ago and considered other ideas besides just sailing the boat with sails alone since I knew most cruisers would consider that impossible even though my 15 year old son sailed off the beach without the rudders down also

My boat has a 12' plus boom. I could remove that and use it as a rudder with one of my kayak paddles attached to the end of it. I have 4 paddle ends

One of my beach cats had a boomless main.......my Nacra 6.0

Beachcat experience can help

I also have 5 anchors. Two large with maybe 600' of rode and chain.....see where I'm going. I'd get the boat in one way or another. I also have 3 telescoping forespars onboard.

I've been stranded as a 17 year old on a 14' boat 5 miles out in the Chesapeake Bay and have over the years realized that my friends and I would have been dead if the weather had been bad. I've been considering options ever since
Well, that's a pretty conglomerate post, thomm. But it includes the ritual derision directed at me personally, and the admonition that I go race a beach cat. Sadly, the accusation that I am too old is correct, and the admission that it is off subject is REALLY true.

And I am duly impressed with your technical credentials. I'm sure that you have worked on some really interesting gear. But that does not support your next statement saying that I should believe that you can sail a boat (and here I assume that you mean a large monohull cruising vessel, since that was the subject of the thread) with a missing rudder. As I originally said, beach cats weighing 2-300 lbs don't behave like big cruisers. The cats, in my rather limited experience, are greatly influenced by crew weight distribution and sail trim... and board position if they have them as most racing cats do. I do believe that you, and other cat sailors too, can steer them without use of the rudders, just like you keep repeating. I get it.

I've never steered a big mono with NO rudder. I have steered with a disabled rudder, but the blade was still in place, and that is a huge difference. And, it only worked with the wind forward of the beam. I have talked to folks who have tried to steer with a missing rudder. The friends I mentioned above are the only ones that were successful to any significant degree, and they were only able to steer after deploying the drogue. Their attempts to steer by sail trim were not successful at all. Should I ever be faced with that situation, I'll figure a way to rig some sort of drogue (theirs was a dedicated commercial type unit, which i don't have on board). Oh, BTW, long ago (before I was too old) I used to steer a 15 foot monohull dinghy with the rudder raised... my very first sailboat, it was, and launching it off the beach required that exercise, just like your racing cats.

Moving along to your next point, the use of some spar (usually a spinnaker pole) with a makeshift blade on the end is commonly spoken of. Sadly, in the real world, especially with larger boats than yours, it doesn't seem to work well. There are plenty of such reports in the literature. If I am not mistaken, that endemic failure rate has meant that such 'emergency rudders" are not acceptable to offshore racing groups these days. They know that even with large and strong crews, that type of jury rig is not successful, and thus require a purpose built substitute rudder to be aboard.

Now, as to your selection of anchors aboard... that is commendable, but I don't see what it has to do with rudderless steering. In estuarial waters old timers in the UK used a technique called "drudging" IIRC. This involved using a deliberately dragging anchor to enable them to work across a tidal stream; perhaps that is what you were getting at, I dunno, and it wouldn't seem to work at sea.

So, all in all you have failed to convince me that what works for a beach cat would work in a cruising monohull or that you could, if required, steer such a vessel, sans rudder, at sea using those techniques. You have convinced me that you are proud of your son's skills, and justifiably so. Sounds like a cool kid and I hope that his early experience leads to a long life of sailing successes.

Jim
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Old 24-05-2016, 23:35   #51
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Re: Survival ??} Loss of: Rudder, Sails, Eng., Low on Drinking Water, etc.

I think the real issues with any makeshift rudders will only become apparent in a big seaway. Its easy enough in flatwater to get a boat to steer with a jury rudder, or even a drogue. Big waves add a whole new dynamic.

Its going to be pretty hard to get many boats to do much other than reach. Tacking and gybing will be very tricky. Then even if you get nearer land another whole set of issues pop up, how do you manuever around any reefs etc. You aren't going to be able to motor very well either, so that doesnt help much. Ideally you can aim for an easy harbour, and use an outboard and dink to get you in close.

A few years back a racing sailer died when they lost their rudder on the yacht "uncontrollable urge" on a lee shore. In the big seas they just couldn't get control of the boat. They tried all the normal tricks including spinnaker pole off the stern. By the time they realised that they were in a bad place they were too late to get assistance before they were driven into the cliffs.
http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/...e%20Report.pdf

On one boat many years ago we damaged the trim tab, locking up the rudder on our way from NZ to tonga. After a day of trying to free it from on deck and not really being able to make much ground I dove and unbolted the thing. It was a horrible job in the big seas, but the relief of being able to steer again was worth it.

I also had to dive on and bolt up a loose rudder heel bearing once in Antarctica. Cold.. But there was no way I was going to cross the drake with a loose rudder!!

Aside from keeping the water out, and keeping the crew onboard, keeping the rudder attached is the next critical step.

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Old 25-05-2016, 00:53   #52
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Re: Survival ??} Loss of: Rudder, Sails, Eng., Low on Drinking Water, etc.

I've heard that self steering gear with independent rudders such as hydrovane may me a solution but I've also been told that these (and I'm referring specifically to hydrovane) are too small to successfully steer a larger yacht (like my 46' , 30,000# ketch) in any kind of weather if the main rudder is completely gone or maybe if it's just damaged and struck in one position.
I'd like to know what anyone with direct experience in this area has to say on this point.
Thanks!
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Old 25-05-2016, 02:23   #53
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Re: Survival ??} Loss of: Rudder, Sails, Eng., Low on Drinking Water, etc.

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Well, that's a pretty conglomerate post, thomm. But it includes the ritual derision directed at me personally, and the admonition that I go race a beach cat. Sadly, the accusation that I am too old is correct, and the admission that it is off subject is REALLY true.

And I am duly impressed with your technical credentials. I'm sure that you have worked on some really interesting gear. But that does not support your next statement saying that I should believe that you can sail a boat (and here I assume that you mean a large monohull cruising vessel, since that was the subject of the thread) with a missing rudder. As I originally said, beach cats weighing 2-300 lbs don't behave like big cruisers. The cats, in my rather limited experience, are greatly influenced by crew weight distribution and sail trim... and board position if they have them as most racing cats do. I do believe that you, and other cat sailors too, can steer them without use of the rudders, just like you keep repeating. I get it.

I've never steered a big mono with NO rudder. I have steered with a disabled rudder, but the blade was still in place, and that is a huge difference. And, it only worked with the wind forward of the beam. I have talked to folks who have tried to steer with a missing rudder. The friends I mentioned above are the only ones that were successful to any significant degree, and they were only able to steer after deploying the drogue. Their attempts to steer by sail trim were not successful at all. Should I ever be faced with that situation, I'll figure a way to rig some sort of drogue (theirs was a dedicated commercial type unit, which i don't have on board). Oh, BTW, long ago (before I was too old) I used to steer a 15 foot monohull dinghy with the rudder raised... my very first sailboat, it was, and launching it off the beach required that exercise, just like your racing cats.

Moving along to your next point, the use of some spar (usually a spinnaker pole) with a makeshift blade on the end is commonly spoken of. Sadly, in the real world, especially with larger boats than yours, it doesn't seem to work well. There are plenty of such reports in the literature. If I am not mistaken, that endemic failure rate has meant that such 'emergency rudders" are not acceptable to offshore racing groups these days. They know that even with large and strong crews, that type of jury rig is not successful, and thus require a purpose built substitute rudder to be aboard.

Now, as to your selection of anchors aboard... that is commendable, but I don't see what it has to do with rudderless steering. In estuarial waters old timers in the UK used a technique called "drudging" IIRC. This involved using a deliberately dragging anchor to enable them to work across a tidal stream; perhaps that is what you were getting at, I dunno, and it wouldn't seem to work at sea.

So, all in all you have failed to convince me that what works for a beach cat would work in a cruising monohull or that you could, if required, steer such a vessel, sans rudder, at sea using those techniques. You have convinced me that you are proud of your son's skills, and justifiably so. Sounds like a cool kid and I hope that his early experience leads to a long life of sailing successes.

Jim
Such a good reply!

Thanks for posting as you did. Good points plus admirable civility make yours such a good post.

I also strongly agree with your point about the vast difference in a beach cat experience in typical sailing conditions for those boats, contrasted with possible open ocean (big seas) conditions that a cruising boat may encounter, and how lightweight beach cats are more responsive to crew weight distribution than a larger, heavier monohull cruiser.
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Old 25-05-2016, 04:14   #54
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pirate Re: Survival ??} Loss of: Rudder, Sails, Eng., Low on Drinking Water, etc.

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Originally Posted by nshawdvm View Post
I've heard that self steering gear with independent rudders such as hydrovane may me a solution but I've also been told that these (and I'm referring specifically to hydrovane) are too small to successfully steer a larger yacht (like my 46' , 30,000# ketch) in any kind of weather if the main rudder is completely gone or maybe if it's just damaged and struck in one position.
I'd like to know what anyone with direct experience in this area has to say on this point.
Thanks!
Nick


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Delivered a 32ft steel boat from Agua Dulce, Spain to London just using a self steering vane rudder linked to a tiller pilot using a pulley system.. mind it was all motor sailing (main only) and the worst weather was around F5-6... worked fine.
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Old 25-05-2016, 06:20   #55
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Re: Survival ??} Loss of: Rudder, Sails, Eng., Low on Drinking Water, etc.

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Well, that's a pretty conglomerate post, thomm. But it includes the ritual derision directed at me personally, and the admonition that I go race a beach cat. Sadly, the accusation that I am too old is correct, and the admission that it is off subject is REALLY true.

And I am duly impressed with your technical credentials. I'm sure that you have worked on some really interesting gear. But that does not support your next statement saying that I should believe that you can sail a boat (and here I assume that you mean a large monohull cruising vessel, since that was the subject of the thread) with a missing rudder. As I originally said, beach cats weighing 2-300 lbs don't behave like big cruisers. The cats, in my rather limited experience, are greatly influenced by crew weight distribution and sail trim... and board position if they have them as most racing cats do. I do believe that you, and other cat sailors too, can steer them without use of the rudders, just like you keep repeating. I get it.

I've never steered a big mono with NO rudder. I have steered with a disabled rudder, but the blade was still in place, and that is a huge difference. And, it only worked with the wind forward of the beam. I have talked to folks who have tried to steer with a missing rudder. The friends I mentioned above are the only ones that were successful to any significant degree, and they were only able to steer after deploying the drogue. Their attempts to steer by sail trim were not successful at all. Should I ever be faced with that situation, I'll figure a way to rig some sort of drogue (theirs was a dedicated commercial type unit, which i don't have on board). Oh, BTW, long ago (before I was too old) I used to steer a 15 foot monohull dinghy with the rudder raised... my very first sailboat, it was, and launching it off the beach required that exercise, just like your racing cats.

Moving along to your next point, the use of some spar (usually a spinnaker pole) with a makeshift blade on the end is commonly spoken of. Sadly, in the real world, especially with larger boats than yours, it doesn't seem to work well. There are plenty of such reports in the literature. If I am not mistaken, that endemic failure rate has meant that such 'emergency rudders" are not acceptable to offshore racing groups these days. They know that even with large and strong crews, that type of jury rig is not successful, and thus require a purpose built substitute rudder to be aboard.

Now, as to your selection of anchors aboard... that is commendable, but I don't see what it has to do with rudderless steering. In estuarial waters old timers in the UK used a technique called "drudging" IIRC. This involved using a deliberately dragging anchor to enable them to work across a tidal stream; perhaps that is what you were getting at, I dunno, and it wouldn't seem to work at sea.

So, all in all you have failed to convince me that what works for a beach cat would work in a cruising monohull or that you could, if required, steer such a vessel, sans rudder, at sea using those techniques. You have convinced me that you are proud of your son's skills, and justifiably so. Sounds like a cool kid and I hope that his early experience leads to a long life of sailing successes.

Jim
Morning Jim,

I figured I'd throw out a few of the methods others have spoken of with the spar/anchors etc for your benefit as a cruiser that has no or little experience sailing without a rudder.

I would simply sail the boat with the sails alone and stabilize if needed with available items on board once I got the boat moving decently in the direction I wanted

You see I do have experience sailing a sloop rigged boat without a rudder perhaps a couple hundred times. (rudders up; boards up) It's a beachcat thing but it also applies well to a heavy sloop rigged monohull with a full keel. The boat I have now is much easier to sail than a beachcat especially one with a spinnaker that's being singlehand sailed. Much more forgiving also. It's a great boat

I have posted articles for you in the past supporting this by well qualified experts but you just ignore them and keep typing long posts until you get support from others that also have no or little sailing experience rudderless.

I'll see if I can find the articles I like by Colgate

https://books.google.com/books?id=8U...rudder&f=false

http://www.offshoresailing.com/rudderless-drill/

One main difference between sailing a beachcat and cruising monohull without a rudder would be the duration. You'd have to put in the work if well offshore.

As far as my attacks on you, you know exactly why that occurs from time to time. Do unto others etc..... This is about the 5th time we've argued this same point because I once in the past explained where you were weak in a certain area of boat handling and you have never let it go. It's okay, your not a racer. You don't need total sailing skill. Let it go..... even though it is a good mental exercise arguing/supporting ones point of view.

Have a nice day,

Tom
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Old 25-05-2016, 06:46   #56
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pirate Re: Survival ??} Loss of: Rudder, Sails, Eng., Low on Drinking Water, etc.

I've got to butt in here.. the difference comes with size as Jim says.. the smaller the boat the more effective ones weight is.. I've sailed without using the tiller by just shifting my weight to make small course adjustments.. and a tweak of the sail for larger.. and small cats are more directionally stable than a mono.. to my mind.
How did you lose both rudders on your cat..??
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Old 25-05-2016, 07:02   #57
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Re: Survival ??} Loss of: Rudder, Sails, Eng., Low on Drinking Water, etc.

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I've got to butt in here.. the difference comes with size as Jim says.. the smaller the boat the more effective ones weight is.. I've sailed without using the tiller by just shifting my weight to make small course adjustments.. and a tweak of the sail for larger.. and small cats are more directionally stable than a mono.. to my mind.
How did you lose both rudders on your cat..??
Morning Boatman61, (afternoon for you I reckon)

When we come off the beach or into the beach we sail with boards up and rudders up. That's every single time. And don't forget the kids and little old ladies wading that have to be avoided. You have to steer around them WITH the sails

Sometimes we are lazy coming off the beach because we just spent an hour and a half putting the darn boat together, steeping the mast ,etc sometimes after driving a couple hours to get to the event so we will sail out a few miles with rudders and boards up.

Now think racing and crazy gotta win at all cost racers. Sometimes when sailing out a pass or inlet in a 20 mile seabuoy race, we will take a short cut across a shallow area avoiding the strong incoming current going thru the pass (in some races) while at the same time getting closer to the beach current once out the pass which will try and push you away from the Number One Buoy a few miles offshore you are trying to round. Once thru the shallow stuff rudders and boards go back down. This on a 400lb Nacra 6.0 which was a beast of a beachcat back in the day

Boats of equal speed as yours or faster that sail out in the channel etc in deeper water can be passed using the method above. The current is much stronger out there. There used to be 20 plus monohulls in this same race that would start 5-10 minutes ahead of the cats.

These poor boats had a time getting out the pass on a strong incoming tide on certain days. They couldn't run the shallow areas

Tom
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Old 25-05-2016, 07:13   #58
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Re: Survival ??} Loss of: Rudder, Sails, Eng., Low on Drinking Water, etc.

Tom, those links are good, but they really focus on flat water stuff. It isnt going to work so well in a big seaway, when rudder problems are more likley.

It can be done. Alan Neubauer with Newcastle Australia sailed around the horn and up to the falklands I think with a spinnaker pole over the stern and no rudder, if I remember rightly.

Also I remember a story of a couple diving under a boat and fitting a new rudder into the rudder post made from a cut dowm spinnaker pole and a bunch of floorboards.

But then there are the many cases of boats being abandoned due to rudder failure. Its hard to know if they could have been saved, possibly, but it shows it not at all easy, or simple and it severly handicaps a boat.

Those emergency rudders look like a great idea. As are some of the windvane systems that can be adapted to steer the boat.


http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/...6#.V0Wh_8uubqA

http://www.sailmagazine.com/cruising...hout-a-rudder/

http://www.yachtingworld.com/feature...-the-med-62439
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Old 25-05-2016, 07:22   #59
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Re: Survival ??} Loss of: Rudder, Sails, Eng., Low on Drinking Water, etc.

I'm just saying it can be done but you may have to wait out the weather in some cases.

The direction you want to sail could also be a factor depending on your boats keel and sails. You may have to sail in a direction you didn't necessarily want to go

For a coastal sailor with a broken rudder, it may be best just to anchor if possible due to bridges etc and call for a tow. It all depends. The skipper will have to make the call
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Old 25-05-2016, 16:33   #60
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,443
Re: Survival ??} Loss of: Rudder, Sails, Eng., Low on Drinking Water, etc.

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As far as my attacks on you, you know exactly why that occurs from time to time. Do unto others etc..... This is about the 5th time we've argued this same point because I once in the past explained where you were weak in a certain area of boat handling and you have never let it go. It's okay, your not a racer. You don't need total sailing skill. Let it go..... even though it is a good mental exercise arguing/supporting ones point of view.
I've not wanted to get into this on the forum, Thom, but I'm a little weary of the condescension relative to me not being a racer. I don't like to do what might be construed as bragging, but, to clear the air a bit...

I was an active racing sailor in the SF Bay area for many years. Started in a Catalina 22, racing in the SYRA group for four years. Results: one year of poor finishes, then one first, one third, another first (over all season results). Sailed in the Nationals once: 10th out of over 60 entries.

Next boat was a Yankee 30. Raced her for years. Did one season with the local one design group, finished 3d in t he fleet... without a spinnaker. Then did my first singlehanded race, the second ever singlehand Farallones race. Finished mid fleet, without an autopilot or windvane, but got the bug. Did some more crewed racing, mostly one-off events like the Silver Eagle with mixed results and no big wins. But I was very turned on by the single hand stuff, and got involved with the formation of the Association of Single Handers (ASH), which pioneered SH racing along with the regular OYRA. This group sailed the full YRA offshore schedule, starting behind the MORA boats.We did two series per year, each with 6 races IIRC. I was pretty bad the first season, but improved with time. Eventually finished first overall in the last 5 series that I sailed. Also did the SSS Singlehanded Farallones race each year including one second overall, 19 seconds out of first. That was when the cruising bug struck, and Ann and I sailed to Hawaii and back in the middle of the racing season, and that was the end of my racing career. Never a super hero, but I did OK.

So, while I haven't raced in years, it is possibly not correct to berate me for not being a racer, and for lacking the mysterious skills that only racers posses.

And with that, I bow out.

Jim
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