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Old 09-01-2010, 21:00   #31
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Kefaa

Neat ! This one is really out of the box. I would have to think about it some more but on the surface it sounds really interesting.

It takes the requirement for a survey off the buyer and places it with the seller. One boat/ one survey that everyone has confidence in because if there is an issue it is covered by the surveyor for the first 12 months.

Kefaa, when you got your house built was the inspector covered by insurance ? If the surveyor could be covered by remediation insurance this would eliminate the Dodgy Bros. They wouldn't be able to get insurance. I wonder how much this insurance would cost the surveyor and if it would drive up surveyor fees. You can bet the insurance companies would have a list of exclusions a mile long.

One difficult issue would be deciding what "items" to inspect and what standards to use in inspecting them. But that's what marine surveyors are trained for and why they get the big bucks. ACMS and NAMS probably have done this already.
I'd like to see longer warrantee periods for major structural and safety items. But it might be difficult to develop a comprehensive (hull, rigging, engine, electrics etc) inspection and warrantee product that was cost effective. However, if it could be done it certainly would put pressure on builders to improve quality. And....
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I also thing the first certification organization to offer a warranty is going to clean up and the others will be forced to adapt or die. Which is good for everyone.
I agree with you on this.

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Old 10-01-2010, 14:41   #32
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First I have to say you guys are comparing 2 different things. Houses are not at all like boats other than they are shells and have wiring and plumbing in them but that is where it ends. Boats are complicated pieces of equipment with many different systems. They have to operate safely in one of the harshest environments on earth. Your house just sits there. Do you really think your boat and your house are that much alike? Would you go to a Chiropractor to get your teeth cleaned? Would you take your car to your lawn care guy for repair? Ok enough of that rant I hope you get the point there are some major differences between the inspection a qualified surveyor does and that of a house inspector.

As for the warranty I'm afraid if you wanted your surveyor to give you a 12 mouth warranty you would paying over $100.00 per foot for a survey, **** we already have to carry 2 mil in insurance just to step on your boat. Sure I see it from your point of view who wouldn't want a 12 mouth warranty on a used boat but I personally do not see it happening in my lifetime. They can do it in a house because there is little to go wrong. Are surveyors supposed to pay you when you run aground? or let the batteries go dead and the boat sink? Should a surveyor be responsible when a chain plate fails below the deck line? does that mean we have to pull chain plates, what about keel bolts guess we have to drop the keel, might as well replace the batteries in the EPIRBs and recharge the fire extinguishers. Should I go on? Where does it end?

The buyer has to take some responsibility as well, yes I agree you should not get screwed when buying a boat either new or used but surveyors are there to try to find possible problems with a boat you are looking at. If we have to start providing you a warranty that it will not break I promise you you will be bitching about how much it costs and you will be costing yourself out of the boat market because you cannot afford a survey so you will not be able to get insurance or financing.

Most surveyors do a good job, yes there are those out there that I would not let on the same dock as my boat. But like with any professional you hire, if you hire them on price alone (and many do) you will get what you pay for and maybe not the much.

Ok I will get off my soapbox now but think about it you might not agree with all of my rant but I am the one on the other side and I am on your side as well. And let me know if hire your house inspector to check out your next boat for you.

Fair Winds
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Old 10-01-2010, 15:54   #33
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sailvayu -
Wayne, you've got it right except I think the price of a survey would be more like $1,000.00 per foot.
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Old 10-01-2010, 17:20   #34
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sailvayu -
Wayne, you've got it right except I think the price of a survey would be more like $1,000.00 per foot.
And yet an insurer will insure the entire boat for a couple thousand for that year based on that same information.

From an actuarial standpoint, if the surveyor is any good at all, the likelihood of having a covered item (something they really looked at and said was okay) need repairs in the next year would be pretty slim. They would naturally exclude items such as motors, electronics, etc that have a shelf life anyway but insuring the hull, anchor, rig, electrical setup, etc wouldn't be a big stretch for any insurer that wanted to get into the game. If I was an insurer I would certainly insure those things before I would insure the foundation of a 100 year old house for a home inspector.

Jim
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Old 10-01-2010, 17:24   #35
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Most boats lead a rough life in an extremely corrosive enviormment. As stated in most survey reports, the report is only good on the day it was done. Who knows whats going to happen to that boat tomorrow. If I had to give a time dependant guarantee I'd be looking for another way of making a living.
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Old 10-01-2010, 18:06   #36
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And yet an insurer will insure the entire boat for a couple thousand for that year based on that same information.

From an actuarial standpoint, if the surveyor is any good at all, the likelihood of having a covered item (something they really looked at and said was okay) need repairs in the next year would be pretty slim. They would naturally exclude items such as motors, electronics, etc that have a shelf life anyway but insuring the hull, anchor, rig, electrical setup, etc wouldn't be a big stretch for any insurer that wanted to get into the game. If I was an insurer I would certainly insure those things before I would insure the foundation of a 100 year old house for a home inspector.

Jim
Well insurance companies keep dropping older boats, boats in hurricane prone areas and raising rates for everyone else. Then also spread risk over thousands of boats and other products. Now If you want us to become insurance companies, or work solely for insurance companies you could forget getting insurance or "warranty" on anything but the best and newest boats. You forget the surveyor works for you and only you if we have to start working for warranty companies or insurance companies you will no longer have anyone on YOUR side. Think about it. We're the guys that help you get insurance because we do not work for the insurance company. Yes we need to protect there interests but that protects yours as well. I also saw the suggestion that surveyors be hired once buy the seller. Would you accept a survey done for the seller? You might as well just take his word for it that there is nothing wrong with his fine yacht. You are saying you do not want anyone representing you in the purchase of your next boat? Think about that.

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Old 10-01-2010, 22:11   #37
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Originally Posted by Kefaa View Post
However, there may be a way out that is beginning in the home industry and still needs to play out.
I think Kefaa implied that this isn't a proven concept, yet.

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First, no noncertified inspections or inspectors.
Doesn't the above seem reasonable ?

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Next, is a warranty.... Now there were "outs." .... The list was very extensive in what was and was not covered.
Okay, a comprehensive warrantee is too expensive. So there would be exclusions and clauses. But over time the better builders would have fewer exclusions and conditions. The cream would float to the top.

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It also motivates sellers to get an inspection done, knowing I am more likely to buy with a warranty on the first year.
The surveyor would be working for himself not the seller. Yes, the surveyor will be responsive to insurance pressures. But the whole thing is about risk and insurance companies are experienced at managing risk.

After a survey...
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Prices are adjusted to handle the findings (either way). A "clean boat" takes on real meaning.
This is the most interesting aspect of the concept. The dealer/builder/ seller/ have an impartial survey to negotiate with. (imo) If a surveyor picked up a fault he/she would not be liable for this defect unless they supervised the repair. Furthermore, if a surveyor cannot inspect/test something it would be automatically excluded.
The real risk here is that a surveyor will knock back everything just to be safe.

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I also thing the first certification organization to offer a warranty is going to clean up and the others will be forced to adapt or die. Which is good for everyone.
I'd like to see some company do the research and try to come up with a viable business model. If there wasn't enough in it for stakeholders, the free market would sink it.

Jim
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Old 10-01-2010, 22:22   #38
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Just a Reminder
The op was about surveying new boats. The discussion so far seems to have focused on the need for a new boat survey or the impartiality and competence of a new boat survey. While I concede there are problems with the warranty model when surveying used boats. I think this would work quite well with new boats.
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Old 10-01-2010, 23:50   #39
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Layup and Stability Certificates...

In the very unlikely event that I was buying a new production boat I would like very much to get a layup (assuming fibreglass) certificate for the hull, deck and interior liners.

My understanding is that most modern boats are built under stringent supervision and these certificates are sometimes provided (for instance some maritime authorities may require them). It may even be possible that a builder, knowing a certificate is required, could take additional care.

I'd also like very much to get a stability certificate. These may also be required by some authorities.

These certificates would be in addition to the builder's certificate normally provided, if the builder's certificate does not certify layup and stability.

I'd really look for something more than that a boat meets a standard. Dates, times, temperatures and the physical makeup of the layup would be desirable, as would actual numbers on a stability certificate.

Of course in a real world these may be hard to come by, but it would be well worth asking for, and even paying a little extra for.

If a model has been in production for some time and has known weaknesses then a certificate that these areas have been properly supervised could also be on the wish list.
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Old 11-01-2010, 05:42   #40
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I also saw the suggestion that surveyors be hired once buy the seller. Would you accept a survey done for the seller? You might as well just take his word for it that there is nothing wrong with his fine yacht. You are saying you do not want anyone representing you in the purchase of your next boat? Think about that.

Fair Winds
I think that is what got this discussion heading this way. Some of us would like to see a surveyor survey the boat "independent" of who was paying them and we were playing with ideas of how to help that concept along. It is interesting that two responders on this thread who would not trust a surveyor if they were paid by someone else both are or have been surveyors. This probably speaks a great deal about the chances of real "independent" surveys actually being possible in the real world.

Jim
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Old 11-01-2010, 06:38   #41
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I think that is what got this discussion heading this way. Some of us would like to see a surveyor survey the boat "independent" of who was paying them and we were playing with ideas of how to help that concept along. It is interesting that two responders on this thread who would not trust a surveyor if they were paid by someone else both are or have been surveyors. This probably speaks a great deal about the chances of real "independent" surveys actually being possible in the real world.

Jim
You make some good points but it is possible to get an honest independent survey. Its like hiring an electrician or a doctor you just have to make sure he is qualified for the task. Unfortunately the boating public is not aware of the meaning or value of those acronyms or titles used by surveyors. Did they earn the title from a genuine organization or did they buy it from a pseudo organization or mail order "Learn to be a Surveyor" outfit. You just have to do your homework.
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Old 11-01-2010, 06:51   #42
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You make some good points but it is possible to get an honest independent survey. Its like hiring an electrician or a doctor you just have to make sure he is qualified for the task. Unfortunately the boating public is not aware of the meaning or value of those acronyms or titles used by surveyors. Did they earn the title from a genuine organization or did they buy it from a pseudo organization or mail order "Learn to be a Surveyor" outfit. You just have to do your homework.
So if it is possible and you find that the broker or seller hired a "good", "independent" surveyor and you had full access to his/her report and could speak to them directly what would be risky about using that survey? If the surveyor was the same one you might have picked if you were hiring would you then trust them or still insist on your own survey?

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Old 11-01-2010, 06:57   #43
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I often run into the situation where a survey has been done recently but the deal fell through for whatever reason. If I'm aware of the situation, I ask who did the survey. If it was one of the dozen or so qualified surveyors whom I respect, I advise the client that he will be wasting money to hire me. if it was one of the other 150 surveyors in Ontario .......I say nothing and take the job.
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Old 11-01-2010, 13:53   #44
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So if it is possible and you find that the broker or seller hired a "good", "independent" surveyor and you had full access to his/her report and could speak to them directly what would be risky about using that survey? If the surveyor was the same one you might have picked if you were hiring would you then trust them or still insist on your own survey?

Jim
I might be satisfied with that survey depending on the situation. Having said that, if you were purchasing a piece of real estate would you use the sellers attorney?
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Old 11-01-2010, 13:58   #45
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I might be satisfied with that survey depending on the situation. Having said that, if you were purchasing a piece of real estate would you use the sellers attorney?
I have always used one selected or recommended by the broker who basically worked for the seller so in a way I guess I would. I would trust that the job they were doing was to be true to the law not to a particular client.

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