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Old 01-11-2012, 07:29   #16
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Re: Staysail without a mast rail

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Originally Posted by cal40john View Post
The trysail only goes halfway up the mast, the halyard goes to the top. I don't see anyway you could ever tension that enough to not go banging around the mast or sag off to be unusable. My guess as others have said is proof you have the sails, not proof that you have the ability to rig them properly.


John
John, I agree with that but as you know trysails not being secured to the boom are not properly used to sail the boat but to improve the boat balance. The one that sails the boat on extreme conditions is the storm staysail.

I really don't want to put another track on the mast that would be difficult to operate in my boat so what about if we could have a trysail with a short luff with the head and the tack connected to the mast, a long foot (almost as long as the boom), a sail that will go only from the top of mainsail bat cars till the first spreader?

I am talking of a light 40ft so the sail area for both the forward and aft storm sails is much smaller than on those photos but I guess you can imagine what I mean.



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Old 01-11-2012, 07:40   #17
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Re: Staysail without a mast rail

The benefit of track is true but not imperative. Loose luff or not, both contend with extended unsupported halyards. A robust wire luff or bolt rope allows for maximum luff tension. The deployed trysail in the picture is still too high on sail plan. The center of effort in my experience should be much lower. A proper cut would allow clew to rail. As displayed, a proper third reef would have much the same effect. Storm trysails are deployed as last effort to ease roll and quarter oncoming seas.
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:13   #18
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Re: Staysail without a mast rail

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The benefit of track is true but not imperative. Loose luff or not, both contend with extended unsupported halyards. A robust wire luff or bolt rope allows for maximum luff tension. The deployed trysail in the picture is still too high on sail plan. The center of effort in my experience should be much lower. A proper cut would allow clew to rail. As displayed, a proper third reef would have much the same effect. Storm trysails are deployed as last effort to ease roll and quarter oncoming seas.
Yes, but assuming you don't take out the mainsail and that one is mounted on a modern batcar system the tack of the sail cannot be lower. The head can and that is what I am talking about. Regarding the use a 3ºreef (I have one) in really bad weather it has several disadvantages:

The sail is connected to the boom, the sail cloth is not made to support extreme efforts and if you blew it way you will be without a sail that can be indispensable if you are on a middle of an ocean. If you blew the staysai it would not be a big deal, I mean if you survive
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:26   #19
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Re: Staysail without a mast rail

Gotta chime in on this one: First off any serious cruising boat should have a third reef installed. If you get past this you are in deep do do! There is NO WAY! you are going to take the main out of the track to install a trys'l. The storm trys'l requires its own track. There should be a long, strong tack pennant that gets it well off the house top or deck. It is then sheeted to a strong turning block and then to a a primary winch. This is not something you are going to tack. It is simply a riding sail.
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:36   #20
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Re: Staysail without a mast rail

Well it just reinforces the benefit of a second lower track and an reachable head attachment. No one wants to fool with a mainsail luff in 40 kts . Simple lanyard would help stabilize the head of a loose luffed trysail. I'm not advocating any advantage here but absent a track..... . Now we don't live in a perfect world. I might suggest having a cache of lanyards and spare line essential too. As to your concerns about a third reef. I assume we are talking about blue water or offshore sails. Reputable sailmakers will make a cloth selection regarding your boat. Reducing to a third reef significantly reduces stress on your mainsail and proper selection will be well within designed parameters. Best practice second track. I don't have one so I improvise with cunningham, halyard and appropriate lanyards. When I get big, I hope to have a proper track.
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:10   #21
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Re: Staysail without a mast rail

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Gotta chime in on this one: First off any serious cruising boat should have a third reef installed. If you get past this you are in deep do do! There is NO WAY! you are going to take the main out of the track to install a trys'l. The storm trys'l requires its own track. There should be a long, strong tack pennant that gets it well off the house top or deck. It is then sheeted to a strong turning block and then to a a primary winch. This is not something you are going to tack. It is simply a riding sail.
Jesus, I have said that I have a third reef on the main and that I don't intend to try to take out the mainsail. I said also that it would be difficult the use of a separated track. The sail is big and the batcars go high on the mast. To put the trysail on the separated track and pull it up, I would to have to put the sail on the slots, get the main sail out of the way and prevent it to get on the way of the trysail at the same time I pull it up. That seem to be a lot of hands to a solo sailor.

I guess I can do it faster and safely with just two collars around the mast that I attach to the trysail, on the tack and head, over the mainsail bat cars. Then I can leave it and pull the sail up from the cockpit knowing that will not jam on the mainsail, or at least it seems simpler to me.
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:21   #22
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Re: Staysail without a mast rail

separated ( sic ) track?

You meant separate track? A second track would obviate the need to fool with the mainsail. Simply run the trysail up a second ( external ) T track attached to the mast, usually attached to the stb side of the main slot or track. The second track need only be slightly longer than the length of your trysail luff
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:35   #23
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Re: Staysail without a mast rail

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I guess I'm one of those who has the equipment, but doesn't really know how to rig it. I've got a separate track on the main for my trysail, and have run it up to see that the track works smoothly. However, I don't really know where I should attach the sheet. (I've got a cabin top traveler for the main). I've done a quick search but can't seem to come up with anything other than the obvious fact that it is rigged loose-footed.
Generally they sheet well aft, probably somewhere between the main winches and the stern. If your jib tracks don't go far enough aft snatchblocks may work if there is something that is in the correct location to attach the blocks to.
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:43   #24
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Re: Staysail without a mast rail

this may help
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:02   #25
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Re: Staysail without a mast rail

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separated ( sic ) track?

You meant separate track? A second track would obviate the need to fool with the mainsail. Simply run the trysail up a second ( external ) T track attached to the mast, usually attached to the stb side of the main slot or track. The second track need only be slightly longer than the length of your trysail luff
An argument can be made here that a cruising boat should have a second track on the mast. Mine certainly does.
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:04   #26
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Re: Staysail without a mast rail

Who is arguing against a second track?
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:20   #27
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Re: Staysail without a mast rail

For anyone thinking of putting a second track for a trysail ( 2nd track is best) you might want to extend the track further up the mast than needed for normal setting, since a trysail raised as high as you can put it , is the best roll stopper made. At anchor or slatting in a rolling sea, a trysail will take all of the snap out of the boats motion. If you are installing a second track, put an extra 5 or 10 feet to get the sail high enough to use as a roll stopper.___Just another 2 cents worth.____Grant.
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:20   #28
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Re: Staysail without a mast rail

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Who is arguing against a second track?
Read carefully, and you'l figure out that I was agreeing with you.
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Old 01-11-2012, 16:11   #29
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Re: Staysail without a mast rail

Thank you guys

I guess I have enough information to decide what I need.
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Old 01-11-2012, 19:07   #30
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Re: Staysail without a mast rail

If you're going to go with parrels like on a gaff rig why not add one or two more in the middle.

Plastic Parrel Beads

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Jesus, I have said that I have a third reef on the main and that I don't intend to try to take out the mainsail. I said also that it would be difficult the use of a separated track. The sail is big and the batcars go high on the mast. To put the trysail on the separated track and pull it up, I would to have to put the sail on the slots, get the main sail out of the way and prevent it to get on the way of the trysail at the same time I pull it up. That seem to be a lot of hands to a solo sailor.

I guess I can do it faster and safely with just two collars around the mast that I attach to the trysail, on the tack and head, over the mainsail bat cars. Then I can leave it and pull the sail up from the cockpit knowing that will not jam on the mainsail, or at least it seems simpler to me.
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