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Old 11-08-2015, 08:10   #91
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Re: Staysail Advice

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Originally Posted by Ericson38 View Post
Jon,

Is that the Freedom 45 that was for sale through Rogue Wave in Annapolis ? If so, we looked at it a couple of times. Unstayed Carbon Fiber mast, correct ?
Yes it was...

I liked that boat a lot, and that turned out to be one of my most trouble-free trips of that duration in a long time, I had no 'issues' whatsoever beyond one or two so minor I can no longer recall... (I love running the Erie Canal, it's always been one of my favorite trips, and this one has to rate as one of my best ever.) However, as it was a motor job the whole way, never did get to sail that boat - which was a bit of a disappointment, as I've never had the opportunity to sail a Freedom or any unstayed rig of that size...

I lived aboard her for almost 2 weeks in total, had a couple of days delay before departure in Annapolis... Very spacious and comfortable below, though the galley seemed a bit tight, and might have lacked the amount of counter space you might expect on a boat of that size. I always try to avoid using the owner's accommodations on a delivery, so I just slept on the settees on this one. They were fine, and would have made nice sea berths underway...

What most impressed me about that boat, however, was how she performed under power... Extremely well-mannered in close quarters maneuvering, very responsive and surprisingly 'nimble', she really didn't suffer from the lack of a bow thruster at all. Over the course of the entire trip, there were only a handful of moments where I might have wished to have had a quick burst from a thruster at my disposal, and they all would have been to simply counter the turbulence from an adjacent dam while entering some of the locks on the canal... Otherwise, a thruster would essentially be superfluous on that boat...

She backed down amazingly well, the Max-Prop helps a bit with that, of course. There were times coming alongside some of the lock walls where I would have wished for a bit more initial prop walk, actually. But when backing down, once she got moving in the slightest, the rudder took over immediately, and she backed down beautifully...

That was the very first thing I learned on that trip, actually... When I was finally ready to leave Annapolis, a cold front had moved over the mid-Atlantic, and it was blowing pretty good NE... The boat was alongside the dock in the travelift basin at Port Annapolis, pinned in between a boat waiting for a haulout, and a magnificent 52' Little Harbor just sold by Rogue Wave behind her... The breeze was pinning me on the dock, and the first order of business aboard this boat I had never handled before, was gonna be to back her out of the narrow gap between the Little Harbor and a big multihull on the other side of the basin, and down thru the entrance to the basin... Oh, joy... ;-)

In order to catch a fair tide up the Bay, and down Delaware Bay, my departure took place at about 0330... Just as well, there would be no witnesses to this maneuver ;-) But it all went smoothly, no drama whatsoever, that boat handled it with ease...

With the wind over tide situation running up the Bay, and a bit more breeze than had been expected, the conditions were fairly sporty... But even running her big Yanmar @ an easy 2800, she punched through that steep chop with ease, her speed rarely getting knocked down noticeably even after meeting with a few big ones in quick succession, she just kept on truckin'...





Gotta give a shoutout to the guys a Southbound Cruising Services at Port Annapolis... Mike Meer and his crew did an awesome job storing and securing the mast on deck for this trip. And as the pic above indicates, I was VERY thankful they were able to thread it thru one panel of the dodger, I probably would have wound up turning back that morning, there was just too much electronic stuff mounted at the helm that would have been exposed to the relentless sheets of spray...

The guys at Southbound had done this prep for me 2 years ago, on another delivery of a 44' Gozzard going out to Cleveland...





A masterful job, both of those rigs remained absolutely rock-steady throughout the course of both of these trips, neither budging as much as a millimeter. And with the Gozzard, I had some very sloppy conditions on the Delaware, up the Jersey Coast, and on Lake Erie, as well... In fact, no both trips, the only real concerns I ever had re the security of any of the boat's gear, was that of the dinghies hung from davits in both cases... (Have I ever mentioned I HATE running boats with tenders on davits? ;-)) That was the only thing on that Freedom, those davits were not up to the task, they were flexing frightfully that first morning on the Bay, and when crossing Lake Oneida in a strong headwind, as well...

But seriously, the way Mike and his guys stowed the rig on RAVEN, was nothing less than a work of art... That crane operator has a delicate touch, they threaded that 63' carbon fiber stick through the dodger without even having to remove it...








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Old 11-08-2015, 10:10   #92
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Re: Staysail Advice

Hey Jon -- this sort of trip on boats that size seem WAY more challenging singlehanded than most such trips offshore! Not only pulling off all the docking & tie-up maneuvers on your own, but all the time manually steering in tight quarters. I have singlehanded my boat on multi-day offshore trips numerous times, but not sure I'd do it alone just on the ICW run from Norfolk to Beaufort! I guess this is why the owners of these two beautiful boats hired you & not me. Hats off to you.

One question. I've contemplated this same trip, albeit a bit further to Lake Michigan where my brother lives. My understanding is that you can keep the spars up and sail all the way up the Hudson, and then there are yards specifically set up to unstep the mast, either cradling it on deck or even trucking it on ahead. Just curious why the respective owners of the Freedom & Gozzard you mentioned opted instead to have the unstepping done in Annapolis vs. further north.

Btw -- thanks for posting the pics & tales of these particular adventures of yours. Not as dramatic as your Labrador trip, but very interesting reading nonetheless.
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Old 12-08-2015, 05:58   #93
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Re: Staysail Advice

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One question. I've contemplated this same trip, albeit a bit further to Lake Michigan where my brother lives. My understanding is that you can keep the spars up and sail all the way up the Hudson, and then there are yards specifically set up to unstep the mast, either cradling it on deck or even trucking it on ahead. Just curious why the respective owners of the Freedom & Gozzard you mentioned opted instead to have the unstepping done in Annapolis vs. further north.
To be honest, because I talked them into it, as it makes life easier much easier for me...

;-)

The real concern has more to do with the re-stepping of the rig at the Buffalo end of the canal, actually... The options for doing so are surprisingly limited in that area, and I made the argument that each owner would be better served by having their boats re-rigged at their local yards, where they could easily return in the event of some issue, or the need for further tuning or adjustment...

Although I'm confident doing all the rigging work on my own boat, I'm just the delivery guy, not a professional rigger... I'm just not comfortable in accepting responsibility for supervising the re-stepping of rigs of that size on someone else's boat - especially with the one on the Freedom, being totally unfamiliar with that sort of rig...

On the Hudson side, I've always gone to Hop-O-Nose Marina in Catskill, and they've done a nice job... But the sort of cradling they do is really only adequate to get you thru the Erie Canal (and only across Oneida Lake in calm conditions), I wouldn't venture out into Lake Erie with the mast on deck that way... Better just to really do it right from the start, in the very secure and professional manner it was done in Annapolis...

And, in both cases, it turned out I would have wound up doing very little sailing had the rig been up in open water on either trip, anyway... With the Freedom, the only opportunity to sail would have been a few hours one afternoon off the Jersey coast between Barnegat and Manasquan Inlets... With the Gozzard, maybe the last half of the ride down Delaware Bay, and chances are that would have been motorsailing, anyway... Another nice thing about having the rig down from the start on this trip, is that I could run through the Cape May Canal, rather than having to go out around Cape May Point, which can sometimes be a bit of a PITA, and always winds up being done against the flood at the Delaware Entrance...
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Old 12-08-2015, 07:33   #94
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Re: Staysail Advice

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Jon-- I'm a little surprised about your thinking large is less safe than small as in the same paragraph you're talking about wanting clip in stations and not to get dragged along when your jackline lets your tether and you pop over the edge.
Sorry if I didn't make myself clear, I'm not saying large is ALWAYS "less safe than small"… Dockhead has said he feels safer on the foredeck of a larger boat as opposed to a smaller one, whereas I am suggesting that the only constant that applies - as always in these sort of discussions - is that IT DEPENDS… ;-)

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On a bigger boat, your jacklines can be further inboard -- allowing you with your little tether to stay more safely aboard the boat. There's also no reason not to have many pad eyes or deck fitting to clip into on your larger vessel. Because of the sheer size of things on a larger boat, you'll actually find more hefty eyes, rails, and other things to clip into than on a small vessel.
Again, I would say Not Always…

The one yacht I have more experience sailing offshore than any other single design, is the Ron Holland-designed Trintella 47 and 50… A wonderful boat and beautiful sailing machine, but some features of the deck and cockpit ergonomics left a bit to be desired ;-)





With that large doghouse, there would have been no way to rig jacklines closer to the centerline on that boat, and once you got to the forward edge of the cuddy, any good handholds essentially disappeared… The side decks were surprisingly narrow, with no toenail whatsoever aft of the foredeck… But it was when one ventured forward of the mast, that you began to encounter one of the least desirable aspects of deck ergonomics increasingly common on many of today's boats, particularly those featuring the sleeker Euro-styling…

The foredeck on many of these boats today has morphed into a sort of subtle 'blend' between deck, and coachroof… These sculpted and multi-faceted surfaces that now cover much of the area forward of the mast can be extremely dangerous, IMHO, especially at night… On the Trintella, the only truly flat deck surface was within about 18 inches of the rail. Try stepping any further inboard, and you never really knew what you might be putting your foot down upon, whether it was sloped or curved, non-skid or slick gelcoat… The sharper and more obvious delineation between deck and coachroof that is common on older/more traditional designs is all but disappearing on many of today's boats - even the "larger" ones - and in my view, that can pose a serious risk for crew going forward in boisterous conditions… Hell, I've even slipped on such decks when simply washing the boat down at dockside, at the end of a day…

Given the choice between having to go forward on this little Cape George 31, or a boat like the Trintella 50, I'll take the Little Guy, every time…

After the sun has gotten higher, and 'warmed' the deck up a bit, that is…

;-)


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Old 12-08-2015, 10:30   #95
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Re: Staysail Advice

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The foredeck on many of these boats today has morphed into a sort of subtle 'blend' between deck, and coachroof…

Given the choice between having to go forward on this little Cape George 31, or a boat like the Trintella 50, I'll take the Little Guy, every time…
It seems your comparison is of old vs new (even more specific old-style design of distinct decks vs new style cabins sloped into decks) rather than large vs small. Next time you're on a large boat modern boat with the cabin-morph-deck, consider looking at the alternative paths for jacklines closer to the centerline. You can rig them and clip in closer to CL even though you're walking along the edge of a silly cabin/deck hump. That distance in and of itself is what I referred to, only. Greater distance for the jackline to the deck edge means less likelihood of you being dragged along by the tether. There are seemingly more of the small boats with the same "where do I stand" issue for similar reasons. You're so right that by design some boats just provide better footing than others. Even having a decent toe rail (IMO minimum height would be the width of the sole of a clad foot -- so about 3"-4" or more--is nice.

The lack of hand-holds is another reason to go ahead and use the jackline and tether as you can keep it loaded with your weight and have a little more secure situation. You can also choose to install temporary breast lines (strategically in locations along the boat's perimeter) or similar lines between masts, from shroud to a fitting on deck, etc. If there's a problem area for a particular sailor on a particular boat, s/he has a lot of tools to change the situation favorably.

On the matter of being able to safely move around on the deck of a boat: When in doubt, don't walk, crawl.
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Old 12-08-2015, 13:35   #96
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Re: Staysail Advice

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Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery View Post
It seems your comparison is of old vs new (even more specific old-style design of distinct decks vs new style cabins sloped into decks) rather than large vs small. Next time you're on a large boat modern boat with the cabin-morph-deck, consider looking at the alternative paths for jacklines closer to the centerline. You can rig them and clip in closer to CL even though you're walking along the edge of a silly cabin/deck hump. That distance in and of itself is what I referred to, only. Greater distance for the jackline to the deck edge means less likelihood of you being dragged along by the tether. There are seemingly more of the small boats with the same "where do I stand" issue for similar reasons. You're so right that by design some boats just provide better footing than others. Even having a decent toe rail (IMO minimum height would be the width of the sole of a clad foot -- so about 3"-4" or more--is nice.

The lack of hand-holds is another reason to go ahead and use the jackline and tether as you can keep it loaded with your weight and have a little more secure situation. You can also choose to install temporary breast lines (strategically in locations along the boat's perimeter) or similar lines between masts, from shroud to a fitting on deck, etc. If there's a problem area for a particular sailor on a particular boat, s/he has a lot of tools to change the situation favorably.

On the matter of being able to safely move around on the deck of a boat: When in doubt, don't walk, crawl.
Fwiw, John Harries on the Morgan's Cloud/Attainable Adventure Cruising website suggests a tether secured permanently at the mast, and only using jacklines to get there from the cockpit. There's even a short video about it. My larger boat fortunately doesn't suffer from uneven deck surfaces like Jon described, but does have a bit of a "no man's land" foredeck once you leave the safety of the very secure cabin top handholds and venture towards the bow. I'm thinking perhaps a short line down the center from the mast to a bow cleat might be helpful here.

Speaking of the foredeck, there's an interesting article that just came out about the use of roller furling vs. hanked-on staysails. http://www.practical-sailor.com/blog...aypoints081215. Hardly a new debate topic, but one that is relevant to earlier points made by Ken & Dock about trying to minimize the risks of going forward in difficult conditions. My sloop rig came to me with a detachable inner forestay that can be used to deploy a storm staysail or storm jib, both hank-on. With electric roller furling for both my main & headsail (with manual backups), I personally like the idea of having more of a "bulletproof" set-up when hit with strong conditions. At the same time, going forward to raise my hank-on storm sails is always the LAST thing I want to do when conditions deteriorate! Ah well, no easy answers and every "solution" has it's pros & cons . . . .
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Old 12-08-2015, 13:44   #97
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Re: Staysail Advice

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To be honest, because I talked them into it, as it makes life easier much easier for me...

;-)

The real concern has more to do with the re-stepping of the rig at the Buffalo end of the canal, actually... The options for doing so are surprisingly limited in that area, and I made the argument that each owner would be better served by having their boats re-rigged at their local yards, where they could easily return in the event of some issue, or the need for further tuning or adjustment...

Although I'm confident doing all the rigging work on my own boat, I'm just the delivery guy, not a professional rigger... I'm just not comfortable in accepting responsibility for supervising the re-stepping of rigs of that size on someone else's boat - especially with the one on the Freedom, being totally unfamiliar with that sort of rig...

On the Hudson side, I've always gone to Hop-O-Nose Marina in Catskill, and they've done a nice job... But the sort of cradling they do is really only adequate to get you thru the Erie Canal (and only across Oneida Lake in calm conditions), I wouldn't venture out into Lake Erie with the mast on deck that way... Better just to really do it right from the start, in the very secure and professional manner it was done in Annapolis...

And, in both cases, it turned out I would have wound up doing very little sailing had the rig been up in open water on either trip, anyway... With the Freedom, the only opportunity to sail would have been a few hours one afternoon off the Jersey coast between Barnegat and Manasquan Inlets... With the Gozzard, maybe the last half of the ride down Delaware Bay, and chances are that would have been motorsailing, anyway... Another nice thing about having the rig down from the start on this trip, is that I could run through the Cape May Canal, rather than having to go out around Cape May Point, which can sometimes be a bit of a PITA, and always winds up being done against the flood at the Delaware Entrance...
Well, if I were one of these owners you would have convinced me! Then again, it seems kinda silly not to take the advice of the guy you're hiring to lend advice about such matters! If I was making the trip myself, I'd be a bit hesitant relying on my single engine w/o sails I suppose, but I don't have your experience or know-how. I would also think the boat may get uncomfortably rolly in open water without a mainsail, but this may be offset of course by not having all the wgt. of the mast aloft. Anyway, very interesting trip to read about for me, and one I would like to attempt one of these days. I was actually surprised it only took you two weeks all the way from Annnapolis, assuming I read that right . . . .
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Old 12-08-2015, 14:04   #98
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Re: Staysail Advice

This thread has gotten pretty long and I haven't read it all. But thought I would mention in case it hasn't been:
My philosophy for the staysail has been to use it as a heavy-ish weather sail. As such it was designed to be somewhat flat and heavy cloth. It always worked like a dream at maybe 25 knots and up that way. 30-35 knots with a double reefed main and it was the best sailing ever. Flat and fast.
Of course for you diehard sailors that want every micro knot out of normal sailing, that might not be good.
I had this type on 3 boats, all built by the boys at Schatthauer Sails in Seattle. Bulletproof.
Prior to that , I tried the lighter "reef-able at bottom" type of staysail. (read too much Donald Street maybe!) That sail was a nightmare... and not very good for either normal sailing or heavy.
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Old 12-08-2015, 18:20   #99
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Re: Staysail Advice

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Fwiw, John Harries on the Morgan's Cloud/Attainable Adventure Cruising website suggests a tether secured permanently at the mast, and only using jacklines to get there from the cockpit. There's even a short video about it. My larger boat fortunately doesn't suffer from uneven deck surfaces like Jon described, but does have a bit of a "no man's land" foredeck once you leave the safety of the very secure cabin top handholds and venture towards the bow. I'm thinking perhaps a short line down the center from the mast to a bow cleat might be helpful here.

Speaking of the foredeck, there's an interesting article that just came out about the use of roller furling vs. hanked-on staysails. Staysail Furling: Yes or No? - Inside Practical Sailor Blog Article. Hardly a new debate topic, but one that is relevant to earlier points made by Ken & Dock about trying to minimize the risks of going forward in difficult conditions. My sloop rig came to me with a detachable inner forestay that can be used to deploy a storm staysail or storm jib, both hank-on. With electric roller furling for both my main & headsail (with manual backups), I personally like the idea of having more of a "bulletproof" set-up when hit with strong conditions. At the same time, going forward to raise my hank-on storm sails is always the LAST thing I want to do when conditions deteriorate! Ah well, no easy answers and every "solution" has it's pros & cons . . . .
I figure each of us has unique enough boats that the requirements for tether spots are also unique. Even so, most folks do like to be secure at the base of the mast and have a means for assuring that security --padeye, loop, other clip in point --while working with halyards or reefing, etc. We do have pad eyes in strategic spots and don't hesitate to clip onto the fife rails around the mast, as well as pad eyes, and deck cleats.

Similarly the entire "no-mans land" varies by boat. Ours is located midships between mainmast and foremast. After leaving the cockpit and the nice handholds along the top of the charthouse to the mainmast, we have 17 feet of fore-and-aft distance that seems huge sometimes and with only the 4" toerail between me and the sea. We rig the breastlines as a helpful handline but if it's rough I just drop and crawl near centerline until I get to the foredeck and foremast. Our foredeck is a heavenly refuge in comparison with a nice height of bulwarks (17"-18"), a lot of room to work, a couple good places to sit or stand as required -- all while still tethered in on port or starboard jacklines. Only issue is that it's a wet foredeck -- we have what is called a "raised deck" boat which means the foredeck is recessed and the rest of the boat looks flush deck (with small cabin aft.)

After a foredeck respite, the other no-man's land, or in my case "no-woman's land" is the 11 ft bowsprit with hanked on jib. Luckily, that jib can be raised or dropped without going out onto the 'sprit and can be rolled and tied into the net, but of course, that requires one to work out on the bowsprit. That hanked on/bowsprit is a whole discussion is for another thread certainly not this.

Our boomed staysail is (happily) on the foredeck where it is easy to approach and work with. Yes, it's hanked on, fairly flat cut, and has been up during any heavy weather we've encountered. Only issue is that it has a jackline with thimbles (because of the angle of the boom) and it's hard to make sure the sail's jackline is properly tight when winds get over 35-40 kts. Also, that sail has nice heavy duty piston hanks but I would like to exchange them for moused shackles. We carry a spare staysail (non boomed) that we could set on the forestay but prefer the self-tacking boomed staysail.
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Old 12-08-2015, 20:19   #100
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Re: Staysail Advice

Interesting descriptions about the layout of your boat but hard to wrap my head around some of the distances! Then again, I don't know much about schooners, except that I like them. Great RL Stevenson quote too, btw.
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Old 12-08-2015, 21:26   #101
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Re: Staysail Advice

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Interesting descriptions about the layout of your boat but hard to wrap my head around some of the distances! Then again, I don't know much about schooners, except that I like them. Great RL Stevenson quote too, btw.
There you go--see the distance between the main mast and foremast? That's the 17 ft no-man's land. And there's my favorite little sail--the staysail, in 2010 BEFORE my recut to tighen it up




There's another better view showing the "raised deck" which is the midships and aft part. Foredeck is recessed.


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Old 13-08-2015, 06:38   #102
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Re: Staysail Advice

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It seems your comparison is of old vs new (even more specific old-style design of distinct decks vs new style cabins sloped into decks) rather than large vs small.
Once again, my point has been only to counter the argument made by some, that larger boats are invariably or by definition safer to move about than smaller… I'm not denying that might have been their experience, but it has certainly not been mine… As always, It Depends… ;-)


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Next time you're on a large boat modern boat with the cabin-morph-deck, consider looking at the alternative paths for jacklines closer to the centerline. You can rig them and clip in closer to CL even though you're walking along the edge of a silly cabin/deck hump. That distance in and of itself is what I referred to, only. Greater distance for the jackline to the deck edge means less likelihood of you being dragged along by the tether.
Sounds good, but is often easier said than done… A more centered jackline would not have worked on that Trintella, there were other complicating issues with the self-tacking jib, inboard lowers, and that massive doghouse… Many modern boats feature inboard shrouds, which I generally find less awkward to pass outside of… Virtually every boat I get aboard these days is equipped with those West Marine jacklines from webbing, and there's often little more that can be done with them than be run from a bow cleat to another at the stern… It's an eye-opener, really, how little thought many owners apparently give to their jacklines, in my observation… Since switching to a fixed tether system on my own boat, I usually wind up cobbling something similar together using dock lines or whatever when I'm on other boats these days… Other's mileage may vary, but I'm pretty much done with jacklines for anything more than a supplement or backup, I find fixed tethers to be a far superior setup, for me...

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On the matter of being able to safely move around on the deck of a boat: When in doubt, don't walk, crawl. 
Of course, which is why I suggested to Kenomac over 50 posts ago that he might consider investing in a decent pair of kneepads… ;-)

The snazzy ones from Spinlock I used to illustrate that post, however, was probably a poor recommendation for most cruisers… Probably better to go with something similar like the ones from Gill, that can easily be put on when wearing boots and bulkier foul weather gear…

I always pack mine on powerboat deliveries, as well, they come in very handy when crawling around in engine rooms, etc… ;-)



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Old 13-08-2015, 10:27   #103
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Re: Staysail Advice

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This thread has gotten pretty long and I haven't read it all. But thought I would mention in case it hasn't been:
My philosophy for the staysail has been to use it as a heavy-ish weather sail. As such it was designed to be somewhat flat and heavy cloth. It always worked like a dream at maybe 25 knots and up that way. 30-35 knots with a double reefed main and it was the best sailing ever. Flat and fast.
Of course for you diehard sailors that want every micro knot out of normal sailing, that might not be good.
I had this type on 3 boats, all built by the boys at Schatthauer Sails in Seattle. Bulletproof.
Prior to that , I tried the lighter "reef-able at bottom" type of staysail. (read too much Donald Street maybe!) That sail was a nightmare... and not very good for either normal sailing or heavy.
Look at the cut of this staysail Pacific Seacraft 44, 5th post.

Cutter Efficiency Sailing as a Sloop

That is how ours is cut. It is used just as in that picture. Flying it in lighter air along with a full genoa and main just isn't worth it, unless a beam or broad reach for a long tack.

Kenomac's signature pic seems to show his staysail leach close to the dodger/pilothouse, and I still wonder if it is being backwinded (disturbed air flow).
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Old 13-08-2015, 10:42   #104
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Re: Staysail Advice

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Look at the cut of this staysail Pacific Seacraft 44, 5th post.

Cutter Efficiency Sailing as a Sloop

That is how ours is cut. It is used just as in that picture. Flying it in lighter air along with a full genoa and main just isn't worth it, unless a beam or broad reach for a long tack.

Kenomac's signature pic seems to show his staysail leach close to the dodger/pilothouse, and I still wonder if it is being backwinded (disturbed air flow).
Yep, lookin' good! My staysails weren't quite that high cut though. Closer to the style in post #3. Except the one in my avatar was a bit higher cut.
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Old 13-08-2015, 12:23   #105
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Re: Staysail Advice

We carried 3 sizes of stay sails . . . A "max size" one, an ORC sized one, and a tiny one. We switched from max size to ORC at about 40 kts. This ability to fly exactly the right sail is one of two reasons we had hank on stay sails and not roller furling. The other reason is it allows the stay to be removable (brought back to the mast) which greatly improves tacking efficiency.
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