Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 06-08-2015, 12:56   #76
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Schooner Chandlery's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: home port Washington DC
Boat: SS Crocker design #131
Posts: 977
Re: Staysail Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
I am going to suggest you are net safer pretty much always going forward. . . for two reasons:

(1) by going and looking, even if you are pretty sure you don't know how to fix the immediate problem, you might well catch something else that has occurred - cotter pin that has fallen out due to the shaking or chafed furling line. You might well prevent the so common 'cascade of failures' that turns a small problem into a big problem. My basic seamanship advice is to go look at stuff ASAP, never procrastinate or put off.

(2) by going you are building further skill and confidence. Really the 'calculated risk' on going forward should be tiny tiny tiny. Really the only time there should be any significantly non-zero risk is when solid water waves are sweeping the deck . . .and you should still know how to go forward even in those conditions.

I will admit I am occasionally tired, & don't want to get wet, & don't want to put on the full weather gear">foul weather gear, & don't want to turn off to level and dry the decks. Usually I slap myself in that situation and get go do what should be done but occasionally I am lazy and don't. BUT that's not because of any sort of 'risk', its just being lazy.
Totally agree with the need to go forward and take a look around--you will see things that can be dealt with before they become problems later on. If you're at sea long enough on that passage, they WILL become problems later on.

You do gain confidence, lots of it, just by forcing yourself to be on deck, alot. The whole helicopter staysail thing working to windward -- the issue this thread is about -- for us the issue required figuring out about the load balance between our jibstay, forestay, staysail stay, the running backstays, etc--that was only really possible with one of us on the foredeck adjusting running bobstay, halyards, and the other in the cockpit working with the backstays. In big seas it is soaking wet work for the foredeck person. Now we know what's going on when that begins and we have stay tension and sheet lead remedies, though.

The deck may be uncomfortable but, on the deck of a large boat, rarely is it really unsafe (if you're clipped in with your tether to jackline). Even so, there always comes a time in our travels that my husband and I are tired, we look at each other and start making decisions about doing some of the deck rounds based on which of us has an injury, a cold, or other reason that we're being dragged down and do not want to make rounds. Sometimes we're just being lazy, sometimes there's something else going on that makes the particular crew member reluctant.

I can say that the only big "oops" events we've had aboard all relate directly to one or the other of us bypassing one of our normal inspection or securement procedures and having that bypass, oversight, or shortcut come back and bite us. It is little consolation to us, afterwards, that many other sailors we've sailed with seem to never make those inspections or securements in the first place. LOL. Perhaps others can get away without deck rounds. We cannot.

Best of luck in getting out there on deck and figuring out your own helicopter leech problem.
__________________
"The only noble thing a man can do with money is to build a schooner." Robert Louis Stevenson

Schooner Chandlery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2015, 16:32   #77
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Pacific NW and Mexico
Boat: Oyster 435
Posts: 134
Re: Staysail Advice

Muckle Flugga has nailed it when trying to get back to the original question of flying your staysail in bigger winds.
Sheeting angles, leech tension and running backstay tension are all key as the winds increase. I think you said its a furling sail so I bet halyard tension is also an issue (the problem with set and forget). Above 25 knots upwind you start wishing your sails were made of plywood instead of cloth and the only way to get there is with effective sail controls.
On our Oyster we have an inner sheet track for the staysail and have changed the running backs from the 8:1 purchase block and cam cleat system to a 2:1 + winch system that can be dealt with from the cockpit. We also added a top leech block to all sails so they can be tensioned without acrobatics. We've been able to carry the staysail and double reef main configuration to about 35 knots although due to the brutally square waves at the time, didnt sail much above 45 degrees apparent.
Before you go replacing the sail make sure you get your head wrapped around effective use of All of the sail controls. Our staysail is from 1985 although I expect we are the first owners to use it regularly.
Gary
__________________

__________________
gpeacock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2015, 22:18   #78
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Schooner Chandlery's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: home port Washington DC
Boat: SS Crocker design #131
Posts: 977
Re: Staysail Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpeacock View Post
Muckle Flugga has nailed it when trying to get back to the original question of flying your staysail in bigger winds.
Sheeting angles, leech tension and running backstay tension are all key as the winds increase. I think you said its a furling sail so I bet halyard tension is also an issue (the problem with set and forget). Above 25 knots upwind you start wishing your sails were made of plywood instead of cloth and the only way to get there is with effective sail controls.
On our Oyster we have an inner sheet track for the staysail and have changed the running backs from the 8:1 purchase block and cam cleat system to a 2:1 + winch system that can be dealt with from the cockpit. We also added a top leech block to all sails so they can be tensioned without acrobatics. We've been able to carry the staysail and double reef main configuration to about 35 knots although due to the brutally square waves at the time, didnt sail much above 45 degrees apparent.
Before you go replacing the sail make sure you get your head wrapped around effective use of All of the sail controls. Our staysail is from 1985 although I expect we are the first owners to use it regularly.
Gary
What do you do above 35kts when working to windward? Our staysail is key to successfully going upwind in heavy weather -- it typically doesn't come down unless every other sail is already down. We've only had to go to windward (w/o motor) a couple times in winds that were steady above 40 kts (gusting into the 50's) and the staysail was absolutely the most important sail to that endeavor.
__________________
"The only noble thing a man can do with money is to build a schooner." Robert Louis Stevenson

Schooner Chandlery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2015, 23:38   #79
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Pacific NW and Mexico
Boat: Oyster 435
Posts: 134
Re: Staysail Advice

Above 30 knots up wind we generally switch to the storm staysail and either 3rd reef or trisail. Above 40 we generally change our minds on where we are going and pointing is no longer the goal.
As an aside off topic, on that time I described in the previous post where we carried our staysail and double reef main to 35 gusting 40, we were nicely balanced at 45 apparent. We got tired of the bashing though and changed course for a different port... 90 apparent resulted in brutal Lee helm which required very active trimming/helming and to this day have not been able to find a set and forget sail combination for that wind range/angle.
__________________
gpeacock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2015, 06:07   #80
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,743
Re: Staysail Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpeacock View Post
our staysail and double reef main to 35 gusting 40, we were nicely balanced at 45 apparent.. . . . . . resulted in brutal Lee helm . . . . . . have not been able to find a set and forget sail combination for that wind range/angle.
Staysail alone has been the "low stress set and forget" sail combo for that situation on pretty much every sloop I have sailed (including an oyster 72). You lose a hair of speed but can still maintain a good average and can sail thru brutal gusts with no concerns or adjustments.

Did you really mean to say "lee helm"? Eg the boat wanted to turn downwind? If so, then trimming in the mainsail should have solved that problem. If you really meant "weather helm", which is much more common that helm, (eg boat wants to turn up) then dropping the main (or perhaps Triple reef or try sail) is the solution.
__________________
estarzinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2015, 06:32   #81
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: Staysail Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Staysail alone has been the "low stress set and forget" sail combo for that situation on pretty much every sloop I have sailed (including an oyster 72). You lose a hair of speed but can still maintain a good average and can sail thru brutal gusts with no concerns or adjustments.

Did you really mean to say "lee helm"? Eg the boat wanted to turn downwind? If so, then trimming in the mainsail should have solved that problem. If you really meant "weather helm", which is much more common that helm, (eg boat wants to turn up) then dropping the main (or perhaps Triple reef or try sail) is the solution.
Same here! Staysail alone in really rough weather is beautiful.

Keep in mind that some boats are very sensitive to fore and aft sail balance, and others are not. My boat has practically zero sensitivity to this -- weather helm is a linear function of heel. So I can use main alone, main plus staysail, jib alone, as I like, as long as there isn't too much heel.

But other boats are different and need to have some other sail balancing a headsail.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2015, 16:00   #82
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Schooner Chandlery's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: home port Washington DC
Boat: SS Crocker design #131
Posts: 977
Re: Staysail Advice

Our staysail is a very small percentage of overall sail area and our boat handles heavy weather very nicely. Our boat is very different from yours, so this is only useful, perhaps, for others like us with schooners or ketches as we tend to have smaller sails to work with -- and many combination choices.

Our main is the first sail to be struck when winds rise, as it induces way too much weather helm as it gains power in big winds. The combination of staysail and foresail are our set-and-forget about it combination from 30 kts to 45 kts whether close hauled or broad reaching. We have sailed for days broad reaching with winds above 35 kts. Not so much close hauled in those conditions--a half day here, a half day there.

Working to windward, I tend to pinch up more than is ideal for our shallow drafted boat (leeway) whereas David tends to follow the course of most speed (falling off the close hauled stance and down towards reaching). I love the use of the staysail and often wonder how folks with sloops make do without a staysail. With jib up, it works a champ to help us point higher, and with jib down it's still a great sail that just keeps on working without us thinking much about it. Ours is boomed, of course, so it self tends nicely.


** off topic aside ** I can only think of a couple times close hauled above 35 kts steady. I have maybe 100 hours total time close hauled in winds at or over 35 kts. As others have said, it's a situation to be avoided if possible. We've ended up doing it in unforecast conditions or just to gut it out knowing it was short-term. Ex: a 10 hour stretch close hauled 35 kts -- we came out of the harbor following a gale (when we left, winds were reported as 20 kts and waves smaller than we actually experience--never trust the meteorologists ) into 35 kts of NW wind and awful, steep, mixed W and NW wave sets. We sailed due west for 60 nm only averaging 6kts. Once we had the sea room we wanted, we turned downwind for a couple hundred mile run. Why do we go as close to the wind as we could? We didn't plan it that way --we thought we'd be broad reaching and working our way slowly offshore to the S. Wrong. Because of sea state (the steep west wave set) we couldn't broad reach to the NW wind (and it's own wave set). If we were anywhere close to a beam or broad reach, the boat was being kicked around horribly by the mixed W and NW swell. She handles much better if she can take the waves close to the bow or close to the stern. That left us with choices of beating or running but nothing much in between the two. It was the only trip my husband has ever been seasick (and he has years of time at sea) and the only trip where I've even felt queasy. Very rough 10 hours of sailing through big seas and winds.
__________________
"The only noble thing a man can do with money is to build a schooner." Robert Louis Stevenson

Schooner Chandlery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2015, 10:20   #83
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,511
Re: Staysail Advice

It was a beautiful day out sailing today. Only 10 knots of wind, no swell, so we put up at the sails, main, jib and staysail and tuned each one carefully using the leech lines to perfectly shaped airfoils. Loosened a little here, tightened a little there. We were able to sail along effortlessly at 6 knots in 9-10 know of apparent wind.

We'll try the same in windier conditions when encountered.

Thanks for all the excellent advice.
__________________
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2015, 06:52   #84
Eternal Member

Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 848
Re: Staysail Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery View Post
Totally agree with the need to go forward and take a look around--you will see things that can be dealt with before they become problems later on. If you're at sea long enough on that passage, they WILL become problems later on.

You do gain confidence, lots of it, just by forcing yourself to be on deck, alot. The whole helicopter staysail thing working to windward -- the issue this thread is about -- for us the issue required figuring out about the load balance between our jibstay, forestay, staysail stay, the running backstays, etc--that was only really possible with one of us on the foredeck adjusting running bobstay, halyards, and the other in the cockpit working with the backstays. In big seas it is soaking wet work for the foredeck person. Now we know what's going on when that begins and we have stay tension and sheet lead remedies, though.

The deck may be uncomfortable but, on the deck of a large boat, rarely is it really unsafe (if you're clipped in with your tether to jackline). Even so, there always comes a time in our travels that my husband and I are tired, we look at each other and start making decisions about doing some of the deck rounds based on which of us has an injury, a cold, or other reason that we're being dragged down and do not want to make rounds. Sometimes we're just being lazy, sometimes there's something else going on that makes the particular crew member reluctant.

I can say that the only big "oops" events we've had aboard all relate directly to one or the other of us bypassing one of our normal inspection or securement procedures and having that bypass, oversight, or shortcut come back and bite us. It is little consolation to us, afterwards, that many other sailors we've sailed with seem to never make those inspections or securements in the first place. LOL. Perhaps others can get away without deck rounds. We cannot.
Yes, I'm very much with you, and Evans, on this score...

For me, the essence of Seamanship is the constant maintenance of a 'defensive' posture and attitude... Always wondering and asking yourself 'What If...?' And, doing whatever has to be done to prevent a minor issue from becoming a major one, which of course often involves venturing out on deck when you'd rather not...

Virtually every 'Sea Story', or more serious debacle, involves a series of cascading failures that might have been nipped in the bud had they been dealt with swiftly, at the first hint of a problem. Few endeavors tend to punish sloth or procrastination more consistently than sailing a small boat offshore ;-)

I rarely sail with new crew, or those not already familiar with my personal routines when underway... But it does happen from time to time, and I'm always struck by the initial reaction of most everyone when, before darkness falls on the first night out, and it's time to take what Evans has referred to as "a turn of the deck"... Invariably, people will ask "What are you doing?" Likewise, when running under power and opening the engine compartment for the first routine check, or prior to the transit of an inlet or a spot like the East River, the question posed will be "Is there something wrong?"...

;-)

Of the many recent trends I've observed among cruisers today, I rate the desire and efforts made by many to increasingly insulate themselves from the elements, and what's happening OUTSIDE, to be one of the most unfortunate... Don't get me started on the downsides of something like full-cockpit enclosures, for instance, I've long been a broken record on that score... ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

Concerning big boats - I feel much safer on the foredeck of a big boat in strong weather, than on the foredeck of a small one. What are the risks? Getting bucked off, getting washed off, getting whacked by something, right? The risks of the first two, at least, go down fast with increasing size.
I disagree, and don't see how that can be argued in such simple and linear terms...

Certainly, there will typically be a less sharp motion, and a more stable platform, on the foredeck of the larger yacht... But what about the chore that might need to be performed that has sent you up there to begin with? Securing an anchor that has jumped off its roller, for instance... In most situations, I'd likely be capable of doing so by myself with the 44-pounder on my little boat... But a 110 lb hook, probably no way to do so properly, or at least without the complication of the use of a halyard or handy billy tackle, and probably not without a very good risk of injury... And, as to the possibility of "being whacked by something", wouldn't that "something" on the deck of the larger yacht likely be larger, heavier, and carry a great deal more force with it than the equivalent "something" aboard the smaller boat?

I'm with Snowpetrel here, it has often been aboard larger boats, with their larger open spaces and greater distance between handholds and foot braces, that I've felt the most vulnerable... I realize I'm in the minority on this, but I've come to view jacklines - at least the arrangements I see on the overwhelming percentage of the boats i run - as a rather poor system of actually preventing one from going over the side, and good for little beyond simply keeping one tethered to the boat once you've fallen off... I now believe the fitting of fixed tethers at various work stations about the deck, that largely eliminate the massive amount of slack most jacklines permit, to be a FAR superior arrangement, and one that is much easier to configure and use aboard a smaller boat. The practicality and effectiveness of a fixed tether setup diminishes with increasing boat size, in my opinion... As a result, I know I'm far less likely to go over the side when aboard my own little 30-footer, than any of the 50-footers I've been aboard lately...

Assuming I've bothered to use a tether to begin with, of course...

;-)
__________________
Jon Eisberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2015, 08:43   #85
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,511
Re: Staysail Advice

Jon,

You require crew on a 30ft boat? Dockhead and I go forward on our 54ft yachts and sail alone all the time. We're discussing managing risk on this thread. Sometimes it doesn't make sense to take risks when alone if the problem can be sorted out later.

On the windy day two weeks ago when It was blowing 30-35 knots, I chose not to go forward and fuss with something I didn't know anything about. Instead, I fussed with it yesterday in 10 knot winds.

Ken
__________________
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2015, 13:27   #86
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: Staysail Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Jon,

You require crew on a 30ft boat? Dockhead and I go forward on our 54ft yachts and sail alone all the time. We're discussing managing risk on this thread. Sometimes it doesn't make sense to take risks when alone if the problem can be sorted out later.

On the windy day two weeks ago when It was blowing 30-35 knots, I chose not to go forward and fuss with something I didn't know anything about. Instead, I fussed with it yesterday in 10 knot winds.

Ken
Indeed. And one thing which has not been discussed has to do with the foredeck in GOOD weather. My previous, 38' boat had such narrow sidedecks, and such little space forward, despite the aft cockpit, that there wasn't much point to going forward except to perform specific tasks, and crawl back to the cockpit. On this boat, I LIVE on the foredeck. I stroll up and survey the sails; evaluate sail trim from a variety of perspectives, hang out at the pulpit holding onto the forestay, watching the bow cut through the water.. .

Today sailing from Gedser, Denmark, to Kiel, someone even took a nap on the foredeck -- no, I'll never go back to smaller boats, and the next one will be a bit bigger.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2015, 17:08   #87
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Schooner Chandlery's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: home port Washington DC
Boat: SS Crocker design #131
Posts: 977
Re: Staysail Advice

Jon-- I'm a little surprised about your thinking large is less safe than small as in the same paragraph you're talking about wanting clip in stations and not to get dragged along when your jackline lets your tether and you pop over the edge.

On a bigger boat, your jacklines can be further inboard -- allowing you with your little tether to stay more safely aboard the boat. There's also no reason not to have many pad eyes or deck fitting to clip into on your larger vessel. Because of the sheer size of things on a larger boat, you'll actually find more hefty eyes, rails, and other things to clip into than on a small vessel.

It does take a little more thinking (think before you act) when working with larger gear. Our anchors are all in the 100lb or over size range so yes, you have to think about how you're going to move it around on deck or deal with it in the dingy if you have to kedge, etc, and making sure they are secured becomes hugely important to the success of the passage.

Sailing solo, if you do, is about the biggest risk I think a sailor can take. If you're willing to do that, you're much less risk adverse than I am, for sure.

Fair winds,
Brenda
__________________
"The only noble thing a man can do with money is to build a schooner." Robert Louis Stevenson

Schooner Chandlery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2015, 22:34   #88
Eternal Member

Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 848
Re: Staysail Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Jon,

You require crew on a 30ft boat? Dockhead and I go forward on our 54ft yachts and sail alone all the time.
No, I somehow manage to muddle through without… ;-) With the exception of the sadly infrequent times my girlfriend is free to join me, I always sail my own puny boat alone…

I was referring to those times when I might be running someone else's boat. Virtually the only times I enlist additional crew, are for deliveries where the owner's insurance requires it… Otherwise, I much prefer to work alone. Who knows, after 30+ years now in the delivery game, and the vast majority of my trips having been made singlehanded, I might even have racked up as much time running sizable boats alone as you guys… ;-)

So, perhaps I do have at least some idea what sailing alone can involve… For instance, 2 weeks ago I finished the delivery of a Freedom 45 from Annapolis out to western Lake Erie. Most who have made that trip might likely agree that taking such a boat (with a bit of expensive extra overhang, and - Heaven Forbid - NO BOW THRUSTER, no less ;-)) singlehanded through the 37 locks on the Erie between the Hudson and Buffalo, might on occasion involve the application of a bit of muscle… In fact, to do it properly by oneself, I think it's fair to say it requires a pair of balls of larger than average size…

21 inches in diameter from Taylor Made, to be exact…

;-))











Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
We're discussing managing risk on this thread. Sometimes it doesn't make sense to take risks when alone if the problem can be sorted out later.

On the windy day two weeks ago when It was blowing 30-35 knots, I chose not to go forward and fuss with something I didn't know anything about. Instead, I fussed with it yesterday in 10 knot winds.

Ken
Certainly, we all assess risk differently, that's what makes discussions like this go round.

I've yet to fall off a boat of any size, so I've become reasonably confident of my ability to move about safely offshore… I wasn't aboard your boat that day, of course, but as you're described the conditions, moving from the center cockpit to the area of the mast on a boat like yours would not seem to involve a significant risk, TO ME… Others' mileage may vary, of course. But frankly, I would say when the day arrives when I would assess going in deck in such a situation involves an unacceptable degree of risk, it's probably time for me to pack it in, as far as offshore sailing goes... ;-)

On the other hand, I freely admit to being a bit of a wimp when it comes to sailing boats the size of yours… Sure, I'll do it when the price and situation are right, but rarely without a bit of trepidation… As I've said previously, I know my physical limits, and am simply much more comfortable sailing boats of a size where I may at least have a prayer of being able to manage the more extreme forces involved... Different folks, different strokes, you're obviously either far stronger, or more confident in your ability to deal with whatever might arise on a boat as large as yours, than am I…

For your sake, however, I hope you never have to deal with a situation that involves more physical strength or agility than adjusting the leech cord on your staysail in a Force 7 breeze… For one may not always have the luxury of "sorting things out later", after all…

;-)
__________________
Jon Eisberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2015, 06:38   #89
Registered User
 
Ericson38's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Virginia
Boat: Taswell 49 Cutter
Posts: 187
Re: Staysail Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
No, I somehow manage to muddle through without… ;-) With the exception of the sadly infrequent times my girlfriend is free to join me, I always sail my own puny boat alone…

I was referring to those times when I might be running someone else's boat. Virtually the only times I enlist additional crew, are for deliveries where the owner's insurance requires it… Otherwise, I much prefer to work alone. Who knows, after 30+ years now in the delivery game, and the vast majority of my trips having been made singlehanded, I might even have racked up as much time running sizable boats alone as you guys… ;-)

So, perhaps I do have at least some idea what sailing alone can involve… For instance, 2 weeks ago I finished the delivery of a Freedom 45 from Annapolis out to western Lake Erie. Most who have made that trip might likely agree that taking such a boat (with a bit of expensive extra overhang, and - Heaven Forbid - NO BOW THRUSTER, no less ;-)) singlehanded through the 37 locks on the Erie between the Hudson and Buffalo, might on occasion involve the application of a bit of muscle… In fact, to do it properly by oneself, I think it's fair to say it requires a pair of balls of larger than average size…

21 inches in diameter from Taylor Made, to be exact…

;-))













Certainly, we all assess risk differently, that's what makes discussions like this go round.

I've yet to fall off a boat of any size, so I've become reasonably confident of my ability to move about safely offshore… I wasn't aboard your boat that day, of course, but as you're described the conditions, moving from the center cockpit to the area of the mast on a boat like yours would not seem to involve a significant risk, TO ME… Others' mileage may vary, of course. But frankly, I would say when the day arrives when I would assess going in deck in such a situation involves an unacceptable degree of risk, it's probably time for me to pack it in, as far as offshore sailing goes... ;-)

On the other hand, I freely admit to being a bit of a wimp when it comes to sailing boats the size of yours… Sure, I'll do it when the price and situation are right, but rarely without a bit of trepidation… As I've said previously, I know my physical limits, and am simply much more comfortable sailing boats of a size where I may at least have a prayer of being able to manage the more extreme forces involved... Different folks, different strokes, you're obviously either far stronger, or more confident in your ability to deal with whatever might arise on a boat as large as yours, than am I…

For your sake, however, I hope you never have to deal with a situation that involves more physical strength or agility than adjusting the leech cord on your staysail in a Force 7 breeze… For one may not always have the luxury of "sorting things out later", after all…

;-)

Jon,

Being a delivery skipper, you don't have the luxury of hand picking from your favorite destinations, have most certainly ended up outside your desired weather windows, and due to the nature of the job, end up on a time and tide schedule more than recreational sailors (like me). Coupling that with doing a lot of it yourself, you have my respect. Let's say the new owner of the boat doesn't realize that there is a fault in the wiring (lug pulls out of a cable that looked ok to the surveyor) and a powered winch becomes manual all of a sudden. That is now your problem, and the bigger the boat, the sail area, and wind-sea conditions.. well.....while everyone involved statuses you on the internet for progress.

Is that the Freedom 45 that was for sale through Rogue Wave in Annapolis ? If so, we looked at it a couple of times. Unstayed Carbon Fiber mast, correct ?
__________________
Ericson38 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2015, 14:00   #90
Registered User
 
Ericson38's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Virginia
Boat: Taswell 49 Cutter
Posts: 187
Re: Staysail Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericson38 View Post
Jon,

Being a delivery skipper, you don't have the luxury of hand picking from your favorite destinations, have most certainly ended up outside your desired weather windows, and due to the nature of the job, end up on a time and tide schedule more than recreational sailors (like me). Coupling that with doing a lot of it yourself, you have my respect. Let's say the new owner of the boat doesn't realize that there is a fault in the wiring (lug pulls out of a cable that looked ok to the surveyor) and a powered winch becomes manual all of a sudden. That is now your problem, and the bigger the boat, the sail area, and wind-sea conditions.. well.....while everyone involved statuses you on the internet for progress.

Is that the Freedom 45 that was for sale through Rogue Wave in Annapolis ? If so, we looked at it a couple of times. Unstayed Carbon Fiber mast, correct ?
I'm speaking here in your delivery skipper role. There are so many unknowns when a boat changes hands.

We had two different deep fin Ericson 38's and they were great coastal cruiser boats on the West Coast out of LA and Ventura.

Our current Taswell 49 will be our last boat, as it is 'big enough' and met some criteria.

center cockpit
Queen aft
swim step transom
shoal draft
ICW mast
non-teak decks
cutter
autopilot
LORAN-GPS
radar *
high powered inverter *
powered windlass *
genset *
bow thruster *
main mast (or boom) furler *
washer-dryer *
water maker *
AC and engine driven food refrigeration *
AC-Reverse Heat *


* these last ten items the E38 didn't have. So I am 25 years older now, and responsible for 5 times as much equipment as before when I was 35.

I do realize that if we ever moved aboard, it would shrink, and boats on the open ocean tend to shrink in size compared the world around them, which expands almost without limit.

I want to be able to hand operate all the sail controls, and not rely on powered winches to use the sailboat as a sailboat.

Lack of use of a powered winch, for sailing functionality, could be a serious safety issue. Not so much for any of the other pieces of powered equipment. Getting the anchor up without a powered windlass...that could also be a problem, if not enough time to trouble shoot it (wiring or just change out the electric motor).

I have focused on low friction leads and deck organizers, new torlon bearings on the main outhaul traveler, a close inspection of the roller headsail upper and lower bearings, and mainsail in mast furler. I don't want a 49 foot 40,000 lb boat with a hank on main, as I would need a powered winch to get it up without breaking a significant sweat on a warm day at my age (62). Rolling one out sideways is doable with an in mast furler.
__________________

__________________
Ericson38 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
sail

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
boom less, track less staysail advice Abrain Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 17 19-12-2013 09:57
Gennaker and baby staysail advice Quirocat Seamanship & Boat Handling 2 15-01-2013 18:17
Need Advice On Adding Mizzen Staysail PatrickS Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 4 26-08-2011 09:56
Staysail stuffinbox Seamanship & Boat Handling 1 27-03-2007 08:41
staysail boom Wahoo Sails Monohull Sailboats 8 25-11-2004 09:35



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:03.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.