Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 02-08-2015, 06:32   #16
Eternal Member

Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 848
Re: Staysail Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
There's really no way i can tension these things in a windy situation.
Someone's gotta ask, I suppose... ;-)

'Why not?'
__________________

__________________
Jon Eisberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2015, 06:46   #17
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,510
Re: Staysail Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
Someone's gotta ask, I suppose... ;-)

'Why not?'
There's really no way I can go forward safely in those conditions alone to make the adjustment without the very real possibility of being knocked overboard by a sheet, sail or wave. Even If I was somehow able to... There's no way I'd have the strength to tension the cord under the load.

On a 53ft boat, nothing can really be done by hand after the boat is sailing, the loads are too great. Using a winch etc. yes... By hand, no... unless you don't mind the possibility of a few lost fingers.

Ken
__________________

__________________
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2015, 07:02   #18
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,071
Re: Staysail Advice

You can add a purchase to the leech cord. Say a 3 to one under a velcro flap. As far as going forward. Well sometimes you just have to. Good jackstays on deck, and lots of practice make it safe enough. Run off downwind if you have the sea room and there is just to much water flying about.

This is one thing that concerns me about people leading everything back to the cockpit. You start to get very out of practise at moving around the deck in rough weather...

Sent from my HTC_0PCV2 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2015, 07:10   #19
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,510
Re: Staysail Advice

You're correct, there are some instances when one needs to go forward in those conditions,, like when the staysail was flogging wildly after the furling line became jammed. I had to go forward.... half way. However, I would not do the same in order to adjust the leech cord. Not worth the risk IMHO.

90 percent of the time, its just the two of us. Sometimes, its just me alone. What if I get knocked upside the head?

No definitely not worth the risk.
__________________
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2015, 07:31   #20
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Port Ludlow Wa
Boat: Makela,Ingrid38,Idora
Posts: 1,973
Re: Staysail Advice

I have had the same problem until I had the Yankee re cut...The stay sail is a blade but the Yankee was bagged out. I couldn't tell if it was a sheeting angle problem (fussed with the cars, leech chord ect). Finally decided that it was the bagging issue affecting the twist.. especially in heavier air approaching time to reef or strike the the main altogether. When the yankee was re cut I gained several degrees of point and a horde of power. Now, with the geometry right, the stay sail powers the slot better and there is less heel. Next it's time to address the main...you fix one problem and another jumps out at you. I love having all these sails, but as Dockhead has pointed out, they cost a lot more than diesel
__________________
IdoraKeeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2015, 07:33   #21
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Long Beach, CA
Boat: Tayana Vancouver 42
Posts: 1,853
Staysail Advice

Ken, my situation is a bit different with a staysail boom and a smaller boat but I believe the leech cord is your first best option. Mine is pretty easy to adjust with a jam cleat on the sail. Since yours is not on a boom it leads me to question the sheet lead position. Do you have adjustable cars on tracks for the staysail? Can you sheet in closely enough for the angle you are trying to sail? If the sheeting angle appears proper then I'd think of have the sail checked out by a sailmaker.

By the way, I almost always sail with my staysail set. First reef is in the main(18 knots apparent), then furl the Yankee (25 knots), then second reef in the main (30-35), then staysail alone (35). I've never used the third reef in the main. The staysail is a very useful sail if it's strong and cut properly.


S/V B'Shert
__________________
Tayana42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2015, 14:07   #22
Senior Cruiser
 
roverhi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kona, Hawaii, Carlsbad, CA
Boat: 1969 Pearson 35 #108 & 1976 Sabre 28
Posts: 6,003
Send a message via Yahoo to roverhi
Re: Staysail Advice

Assume the sail is loose footed and sheeted to blocks on the cabin top. If that's the case did you try and change the position of the block?? Easy to do if there's a track, not so easy if it's a standup block bolted to the cabin top. You can change the sheet position in that case with a pendant at the foot or moving the tack cringe on the sail.
__________________
Peter O.
'Ae'a Pearson 35
roverhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2015, 14:47   #23
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,510
Re: Staysail Advice

The track position is good. The fluttering takes place on the aft edge and foot of the sail at the same time. I'm going to try and make an adjustment of the leech cords in the morning and get back to everyone.
__________________
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2015, 15:00   #24
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Neptune's Gear's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Gulf Harbour, New Zealand
Boat: Farr Phase 4, 12.8m
Posts: 992
Re: Staysail Advice

Ken, try the leech cord first. You have to set it for the conditions, so clip on to the jackstays and move carefully. You will be able to manually adjust the leech and foot cords, yes on a 52 foot boat. Apply just enough tension to stop the flutter - it will be obvious.
If you cannot get sufficient tension on them manually, then the sail has serious issues - refer to a sailmaker.
It is pretty normal to have to adjust a leech cord in strong conditions, just part of the fun! If yours is the tied off type, and the sail is worth it, get a jamb cleat put on - way easier.
Don't leave the cord tight all the time - hooks the leech and ruins the sail performance. Like most sail adjustments, the correct tension for the conditions is the way, and if it is physically hard, you are not doing it right!
Finally, it is normally older stretched sails that have this issue. Newer, esp low stretch sails (laminates etc) are less prone to the issue. Again, any doubts, any decent sailmaker can help.
A really bad leech unrestrained can sound like a helicopter! It will quickly destroy the sail if left alone, and is absolutely worth a trip on deck.
Staysails are a great sail - sort it out, it's worth it! :-)
__________________
Matt Paulin
Neptunes Gear Ltd
www.neptunes-gear.com
Neptune's Gear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2015, 19:33   #25
Eternal Member

Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 848
Re: Staysail Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
There's really no way I can go forward safely in those conditions alone to make the adjustment without the very real possibility of being knocked overboard by a sheet, sail or wave. Even If I was somehow able to... There's no way I'd have the strength to tension the cord under the load.

On a 53ft boat, nothing can really be done by hand after the boat is sailing, the loads are too great. Using a winch etc. yes... By hand, no... unless you don't mind the possibility of a few lost fingers.

Ken
Hmmm, sounds like a tossup as to whether you might be sailing a boat that's either too big for you, or not big enough...

;-)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Dockhead,

I was convinced the sail was going to rip to shreds if we didn't take it in immediately. Which was also a problem. The furling line's outer casing came apart when I was reeling it in by hand and jammed up in the blocks. I'll be replacing it over the next week.
Furling lines can be some of the most important pieces of string on a cruising boat, and yet many seem to think that any old ordinary double braid will do...

Suggest you consider the purchase of a top notch rope with a dyneema or blended dyneema core, like Samson's MLX or perhaps NER's Endura Braid. Then strip the cover from all but the portion that you'll be handling, or will be cleated...

Follow Samson's instructions for stripping the cover to the letter, lock stitch and whip the bury point to ensure a smooth taper...

http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/..._Cover_WEB.pdf

Such a core will wind beautifully on the drum, take up far less of its diameter than the 'normal' sized rope, and glide effortlessly thru the system's blocks or fairleads... Only way to go for a furling line, IMHO, especially on a boat the size of yours... Assuming the leads to the drums are even remotely close to being fair, one would have to try pretty hard to have a problem using this sort of furling line...

Whatever you do, you probably want to have a close look at your existing setup... The fact the cover on your existing line "came apart" would seem to indicate you must have a chafe point or possible snag somewhere along the line...
__________________
Jon Eisberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2015, 19:58   #26
Registered User
 
stillbuilding's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Boat: Custom Freya 20m
Posts: 961
Re: Staysail Advice

Sounds like you need to look at jacklines, hand holds, foot placement and even a hard hat for foredeck work.

I have a 60' at present which is heaps easier to work on than the last 40'er. More weight but much steadier. And i do wear a light hard hat on deck.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
stillbuilding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2015, 23:48   #27
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,510
Re: Staysail Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by stillbuilding View Post
Sounds like you need to look at jacklines, hand holds, foot placement and even a hard hat for foredeck work.

I have a 60' at present which is heaps easier to work on than the last 40'er. More weight but much steadier. And i do wear a light hard hat on deck.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
We have all of those safety features including the hard hat. Still there's no way I'm going to head forward unless it's absolutely necessary in 35 knot wind to make an adjustment when I'm alone. To untangle a stuck furling line hung up on a block... Yes, hallyard issues, also yes, adjustments... No. Basically, I'm managing risk vs reward. There're other ways to get injured like getting knocked into something, broken bones, twisted ankles, cuts etc. When I'm alone on the boat or with only my wife, these risks need to be weighed as they can be more serious than when you have a crew.

Example: Two years ago I met a plastic surgeon in a public marina restroom shower facility who was dressing his own wound across his forehead, a five inch gash that went all the way across. He told be it happened the night before during the Force 8 (the same conditions my wife and I were in last weekend), when he was suddenly thrown across the cockpit and hit a winch on the other side of his Halberg Rassy knocking him out cold. His shipmate a neurosurgeon, dragged him inside and stitched up his forehead.

Enough stuff happens, there's no need to take unessecary risks. Even with a tether and Jacklines, you can still be thrown 6-7 ft.
__________________
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2015, 00:17   #28
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: Staysail Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
You're correct, there are some instances when one needs to go forward in those conditions,, like when the staysail was flogging wildly after the furling line became jammed. I had to go forward.... half way. However, I would not do the same in order to adjust the leech cord. Not worth the risk IMHO.

90 percent of the time, its just the two of us. Sometimes, its just me alone. What if I get knocked upside the head?

No definitely not worth the risk.
I had almost exactly the same situation a couple of weeks ago.

I have been using my staysail sheet as my inboard twing for my blade jib. It means that I have to go forward to move the sheet from the jib to the staysail when I change sails. A big disadvantage, but the alternative would have been yet another set of control lines, which seemed even worse.

Well, we had an unforecast Force 8 between Gotland and the Swedish mainland, and I needed to change down to the staysail. In the "excitement" of being forward in a F8, I forgot to give the staysail sheet a couple of wraps before shackling it to the clew.

As a result of this brain fart, when I went to furl the staysail later, the furling line pulled out of the drum.

Which meant that I had to go forward again, and take apart the furler (where is that "eek" smiley?), split the drum, anchor the end of the furling line in place, then unreeve the furling line, wrap it around and around and around until I had the right number of turns on it, then put the furler back together with all the bolts and so forth. Land people could hardly imagine what that's like on a bucking foredeck in Baltic square waves in a Force 8. A bit like trying to reassemble a watch on the back of a bucking bronco at a rodeo While having barrels of cold seawater dumped on you


I'm with Ken 100% about visiting the foredeck in rough weather. No way except in a real emergency. Which means I need to come up with a different inboard twing arrangement I guess.

For Ken's case, I guess he could experiment with setting different leech cord tension before he goes out, but as I've said before, I think the leech cord may be a band aid on a bigger problem.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2015, 00:19   #29
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: Staysail Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
Hmmm, sounds like a tossup as to whether you might be sailing a boat that's either too big for you, or not big enough...
In my experience, the bigger the boat, the safer is the foredeck in any kind of weather. Because it's more stable, and more room to brace and hold on. A notable advantage of big boats.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2015, 00:24   #30
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,510
Re: Staysail Advice

My furling drum for the staysail got stuck last year outside of Garrucha, Spain when it was clogged with gypsum dirt. I just ended up dropping the sail and dealt with the furler back at the dock.
__________________

__________________
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
sail

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
boom less, track less staysail advice Abrain Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 17 19-12-2013 09:57
Gennaker and baby staysail advice Quirocat Seamanship & Boat Handling 2 15-01-2013 18:17
Need Advice On Adding Mizzen Staysail PatrickS Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 4 26-08-2011 09:56
Staysail stuffinbox Seamanship & Boat Handling 1 27-03-2007 08:41
staysail boom Wahoo Sails Monohull Sailboats 8 25-11-2004 09:35



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:57.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.