Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 16-10-2011, 08:30   #16
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 774
Re: SSB Grounding

Quote:
Originally Posted by btrayfors View Post
Do not run a ground wire from the radio to the tuner. Despite what you read. This is unnecessary and can cause ground loops.

The KISS-SSB system has it's own 4' long yellow AWG10 wire which connects directly to the ground lug on the tuner.

In other words, the RF ground system should be completely independent of and not attached to any other ground system on the boat. Despite what you read.

Bill
This is correct, as I stated with the exception that the radio and tuner be independently grounded to a bonded plate. We're in agreement that the factory ground between the tuner and radio be omitted, along with any other direct ground to prevent looping. It should also be noted that the tuner be mounted aft of the radio, but forward of the antenna. The KISS also works better when installed forward of the antenna (stretched not coiled), but aft of the radio. For the best info get this book:Attachment 32666
__________________

__________________

Seahunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2011, 11:45   #17
Senior Cruiser
 
roverhi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kona, Hawaii, Carlsbad, CA
Boat: 1969 Pearson 35 #108 & 1976 Sabre 28
Posts: 6,003
Send a message via Yahoo to roverhi
Re: SSB Grounding

It's pretty hard to mount the KISS ground plane and the tuner forward of a sloping backstay and aft of the radio. That would put the radio and tuner in the forepeak with a long lead to the antenna. Do you mean forward of the feedpoint of the antenna??
__________________

__________________
Peter O.
'Ae'a Pearson 35
roverhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2011, 12:40   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 774
Re: SSB Grounding

Quote:
Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
It's pretty hard to mount the KISS ground plane and the tuner forward of a sloping backstay and aft of the radio.
True, the manual merely generalizes the positioning and location of equipment. My interpretation; forward of the lower antenna insulator terminal. Our radio is mounted at the nav station (virtually in the middle of the boat) and the tuner in the aft stateroom with the antenna terminal forward of the lower backstay insulator. The KISS-SSB CP is connected to the tuner ground (yellow wire) and is located with the body of the CP also forward of the lower backstay insulator stretched out forward towards the radio beneath the sole. This configuration seems to work well as we make 1-2000+ mile transmissions to send email.

I'm not sure what one would do if the radio was mounted in a stern cockpit especially with the limited space one finds on some boats. It's not a good spot to locate an SSB as most of them cannot be mounted in wet locations and the tuner must be kept absolutely dry. My thought, carefully prepare your wiring and layout first before drilling anything.
__________________

Seahunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2011, 13:45   #19
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 10
Re: SSB Grounding

Ok so I will attach the KISS to the AT 130 and ground the 710 separately to the mast (which I assume is already grounded...next project.) I have read about people mounting the AT 130 to inside of the transom. This is where I put mine (didn't have to drill any holes because there were already some bolts coming through that fit.) Do I really need to mount it further forward, maybe a foot or so forward of the bottom insulator? How much will it affect my radio's performance?
__________________
jvbarrac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2011, 14:26   #20
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 774
Re: SSB Grounding

I wouldn't assume anything. Check it out first, but I'm not so sure it's a good idea to ground to the mast. The inside of the transom is going to be aft of the backstay; again not a good idea, but a foot or two forward of the insulator would be good. I'm not sure of the position or it's harmonic effects; but if it wasn't important why is it in the installation manual?
__________________

Seahunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2011, 15:17   #21
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chesapeake Region and Maine
Boat: 42' Bob Perry sloop
Posts: 4,038
Images: 4
Re: SSB Grounding

The inside of the transom is just fine. It really doesn't matter if it's a bit aft or forward of the base of the backstay.

The antenna begins at the tuner, i.e., the GTO-15 wire up to the backstay is a part of the antenna.

Do not ground the radio to the mast, or anything else. It has a DC ground thru the 12VDC wiring and that's enough. Anything else will create ground loops which are undesirable.

Ditto for the tuner. The only ground needed is the RF ground...in your case, the KISS-SSB. But, if you like, you can add to that as noted above. Normally, this is not necessary.

The tuner is pretty waterproof, but you should still try to mount it in a dry location. Don't tempt fate.

Most radios are NOT waterproof, including the pricey Icom 802 which is not even splashproof, so be careful to mount the radio in a dry location.

Your M710 is better than most but, again, don't tempt fate by exposing it to the elements. I've got one on my bench right now which a client brought in which is DOA...all rusted up and likely a victim of water intrusion.

Bill
WA6CCA
__________________
btrayfors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2011, 12:05   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 10
Re: SSB Grounding

So we are trying to finish our ssb today. The only thing left is to connect the at130 to the antenna. We don't have any gto and don't have time to get it. Can we a) use 8 gauge wire or b) use a length of our old back stay with a flexible PVC insulator. The length is only about 4 feet. Thanks in advance.
__________________
jvbarrac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2011, 12:35   #23
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chesapeake Region and Maine
Boat: 42' Bob Perry sloop
Posts: 4,038
Images: 4
Re: SSB Grounding

In an emergency, you can use just about anything. Remember, though, that the antenna starts AT THE TUNER, so that 4' run from the tuner to the backstay will be radiating. It could have relatively high voltages at points, so be absolutely sure it's clear of other things.

Another consideration is the physical properties. Many workarounds won't stand up to the harsh marine environment, so be sure you use something substantial and protect it as best you can.

GTO-15 is just highly insulated neon light wire...any electrical supply should have it. The "15" means that the insulation can stand up to 15,000 volts before it breaks down.

Bill
__________________
btrayfors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2011, 05:48   #24
Registered User
 
Highland Fling's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sunny Scotland but sail in the Caribbean
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 461
Posts: 374
Re: SSB Grounding

Quote:
Originally Posted by btrayfors View Post
Just about anything will "work" as the AT130 is capable of tuning a wet noodle.

However, to work well, you need a good antenna and ground system.

Antenna. A whip will work, of course, but a 23' whip on a 29' LOA vessel is a bit of the tail wagging the dog. I wouldn't do it. Better would be a traditional insulated backstay or an 'alternate backstay' if you can fit one on your boat. Lots of posts on these antennas. Basically, it's a random length of insulated s/s lifeline hoisted with a spare halyard (or a dedicated halyard) and tied off to one side of the pushpit. If your boom will clear this, and you don't have too much roach in the mainsail, then it's a very good, low cost solution which will last thru a hurricane. Mine has been thru 5 hurricanes over the past 20+ years.

RF ground. There are many solutions which will work. The "100 square feet of copper" and "tie everything together" impreachments which have dominated the SSB literature and instructions for over 20 years are just plain bunk. Any experienced ham knows there are lots of other solutions.

I have successfully used -- and often recommended -- a wide variety of RF grounds including, inter alia:

- aluminum toerails
- the pushpit/lifeline/pulpit complex
- s/s rub rails (like on Island Packet yachts)
- the steering and rudder post system
- large stainless steel swim platforms
- tuned 1/4-wave radials
- untuned radials
- wide copper strap to the nearest bronze thru-hull
- wide copper strap to embedded-in-the-hull RF ground systems
- "traditional" and unconventional grounding plates under the hull
and, of course,
- the KISS-SSB system.

All of these can work, and can work very well.

Of these, the KISS-SSB system is probably the easiest to implement and works very well. It costs $145 and while you can build a radial system for less cost in materials, if your time is worth anything IMHO you're further ahead buying one already built. Unless, of course, your boat has some ready solutions -- like the s/s rub rail on Island Packet yachts!

Every boat is different. I'd suggest that whatever you decide upon, you try it out with cheap materials first, before you build and install a "marinized" antenna and RF ground system.

Bill

OKIDOKI

I am just about to jump into the world of SSB and we have got ourselves a nice ICOM IC-M700PRO and an AT-130 and i am a SSB newbie AKA Numptie.

BEFORE spending any money on an insulated backstay and a KISS Ground I am going to try a rope antenna. I made one for a L42 cat many many years ago (real black majic suff then) and it worked fine much better than fine actually. BUT where to put that is the first issue. Now i know the GTO- 15 feed wire into an insulated backstay (option two for us - we have twin backstays) is 'better' stood off from the backstay until it gets to the clamp position. So could i also stand off a rope antenna going up one of the backstays? IF so could i not just use a long length of GTO-15 as my antenna stood off one of the backstays? Now we have an Ex Moorings Oceanis 461 which does not have (thank god) the teak capping to the top of the hull deck join but has an alloy capping of some 3" x 1/2" with frequent fixings that project nicely into the aft lazerette could i use this as my ground would this be a worthwhile experiment? OR ???

thanks in anticipation

kindest regards

David
__________________
Highland Fling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2011, 07:18   #25
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chesapeake Region and Maine
Boat: 42' Bob Perry sloop
Posts: 4,038
Images: 4
Re: SSB Grounding

David,I'm not familiar with the construction details of the Oceanis 461, but if I understand you correctly re: the "alloy capping" I would think that would definitely be worth a try, particularly if it's located along the deck where the toerail would normally be and if it's pretty long. It could serve as an elevated radial which makes for a very good RF ground.I'm not much of a fan of rope antennas, chiefly because I believe that an SSB antenna on a seagoing boat should be robust and able to stand up to the marine environment. The climate of the Caribbean is very harsh on copper antennas....I made a dipole from #14 stranded copper wire once about 40 years ago which lasted less than 2 weeks aboard!I'd either investigate the possibility of an "alternate backstay" antenna made of s/s lifeline or, maybe better, bite the bullet and get a good insulator (like the Hadyn fail-safe ones...about $300) installed a few feet from the top of one of your twin backstays and feed it belowdecks at the chainplate.Bill
__________________
btrayfors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2012, 10:41   #26
Registered User
 
casique8's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Salinas Puert Rico
Boat: Islander Yachts Corp, Bahamas 30 shoal draft 4 ft
Posts: 62
Send a message via MSN to casique8
Re: SSB Grounding

KISS System is the way to go, it works i have 25 feet of wire 15g a icom 710 with AT 140 and a KISS ground, i get good commo and weather Fax.
__________________

__________________
casique
casique8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
ssb

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
HF SSB Ham Radio Option Communicator Marine Electronics 127 21-04-2014 14:40
Marine SSB Radios Used for Ham Radio Capt.Don Marine Electronics 48 16-01-2014 08:52
Sony SSB Capn Bri Marine Electronics 11 30-09-2011 06:31
SSB Receivers - Sony ICF-SW7600GR Cruisin Cat Marine Electronics 6 08-08-2011 06:34



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:19.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.