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Old 30-05-2007, 01:40   #16
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From the US Sailing “Small Boat Sailing Course"
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See “Points of Sail”, at:
Point of Sail
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Old 30-05-2007, 06:47   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wsvoboda
Merlin, When I purchaced my 34 foot Ketch I was handed down a book called Royce's sailing Illustrated (3nd addition) and explains many things about sailing
I will have a look, always looking for more reading, thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif
BTW - With the angle of the true vs. apparent wind in that diagram that boat is hauling a**.

1/ The point of sail is referenced the apparent wind and unless I am wrong has to do with the set of the sail rather than the direction of the wind.

Someone earlier said that when close hauled you can point higher as the boat accelerates? I find the opposite is true. As the boat accelerates the apparent wind moves forward and the sail luffs. I bear away and the boat slows a little. Eventually there is a balanced point of sail where the boat is at it's best speed and highest point.

Notwithstanding the efficiencies of different boats and that you may make better way on a lower popint of sail for a different boat.

2/ If the telltales are clearly out of the wind affected zone the telltales will show apparent wind. The telltales even on the windward side could be affected by the airflow over the sails depending on location. Better location for the windicator is top of the mast.

However when setting the sail efficiency the wind indicator is not as important as the telltales on the sails. They will tell you how the sail is doing.
Gotcha on both, the boats I have sailed are daysailers and don't have a wind indicator atop the mast but I will definitely look for it when I head out on bigger boats (coming soon for me actually)!
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Originally Posted by SkiprJohn
Aloha Merlin,

Hope you aren't totally confused. What you sail by is apparent wind. While sailing true wind has little to do with what point of sail you are on. In a very fast cat the true wind could be on your starboard quarter but your point of sail might be close hauled starboard tack.

When you are on a beam reach starboard tack the wind (apparent) is coming directly over your starboard beam and your telltale on the starboard upper shroud should be pointing almost directly at the mast. It has little to do with where your sails are because you could have your sails adjusted improperly.

Your sails are only adjusted properly when they are not luffing but almost on the verge of luffing unless you are going downwind.

Look how much help you are getting from the guys just looking to give you a hand. Isn't this a great forum?

Kind Regards,
JohnL
What's in bold made it all clear! This is a great forum
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler
but the best IMO is "The Boating Bible". I suggest you get it. It will answer all the above and much much more.
I will definitely check it out!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay
From the US Sailing “Small Boat Sailing Course"
Home Page

See “Points of Sail”, at:
Point of Sail
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THANKS again to all, the help is very much appreciated!
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Old 30-05-2007, 07:42   #18
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Applause for Capn Jeff

This is the sound of great applause for Capn Jeff.

I have described true vs apparent to numerous students but the riding the bicycle idea was great. I hope you do not mind if I use it in the future.

Sincerely,
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Old 30-05-2007, 08:55   #19
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just ordered "The Boating Bible"

Going to order Royce's shortly!
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Old 30-05-2007, 11:47   #20
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Captain Jef's description using the bicycle is on page 23 of "Start Sailing Right" which is a book I always recommend to new sailors.
JohnL
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Old 30-05-2007, 12:15   #21
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Lots of good books out there on the basics. When ever I have new crew on board, I make sure to sit on deck while they are loading their stuff, reading "Sailing For Dummies" It usually gets a laugh, but has generated a worried stare or two
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Old 30-05-2007, 13:04   #22
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Kai - just you reading is enough of a worry ... let alone the title!
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Old 30-05-2007, 13:17   #23
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Originally Posted by SkiprJohn
Captain Jef's description using the bicycle is on page 23 of "Start Sailing Right" which is a book I always recommend to new sailors.
JohnL
I've read that one cover to cover twice, it's excellent!

I also have "Sailing Fundamentals" which is an excellent resource.
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Old 30-05-2007, 15:01   #24
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A couple of other interesting (at least to me) points about apparent wind.

1. Apparent wind is the reason for the Primary Rule of Sailing - that it don't matter where you are headed, the wind is always on the nose.

2. Lots of texts talk about how the boat accelerates as the apparent wind moves ahead. This is confusing because we automatically think of situations when we are sailing relatively close hauled and know that if the wind goes futher ahead, the sails stall. The statement is true, however, if you think of the starting point as say a beam reach. As the apparent wind goes forward and accelerates you are able to trim and power up. The boat accelerates and you trim again. Eventually you are close hauled and the drag of the sails and hull are balanced with the driving force and the boat is going to windward as fast as it will go in the conditions. (Note that by this time you have actually passed the very fastest point of sailing by some 10 degrees or so.) This is "footing mode". You can point the boat higher without luffing but it will slow down and make more leeway - that is "pointing mode" and even higher and put up with a little luffing to get around a mark or obstacle but you will drastically lose speed and crab sideways - "pinching mode".
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Old 30-05-2007, 19:57   #25
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"The statement is true, however, if you think of the starting point as say a beam reach. As the apparent wind goes forward and accelerates you are able to trim and power up. "

This is very important because you have now added the element of actually going somewhere.

Very rarely are we interested in simply picking the best point of sail (best speed). Usually we are trying to go somewhere. So we try to point the boat where we want to go, set the sail and then the boat accelerates and we trim.

Here's how it can trick you.

In scene 1 the sailor is trying to go to the destination X. He is on a reach and the true wind and apparent wind are not the same. What he sees in the wind indicator is the apparent wind. He thinks he can come abeam the destination and head straight for it on a close haul.

In scene two he has made his tack and is confused why his sails won't fill. He has to continue bearing away until scene 3 and now he is not headed for his destination.

This still may be the fastest way to teh destination but he is now beating to windward and will have to make a couple of tacks. Alternately he could have sailed a lot closer to the wind in scene 1, pass the destination and make maybe one tack.

Usually when I get to scene two It is the end of the day, everyone is tired, I realize what a dummy and bad planner I am and fire up the iron sail - LOL
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Old 31-05-2007, 06:16   #26
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Dan:

Relax Lah. A very Singopore type name. Love it lah.

George
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Old 31-05-2007, 06:41   #27
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Thanks, ah. Many name try can but agree cannot.

I tell my partner, "Relax, Lah! Name come sooner or not."

Bingo! Everyone here comments on it. The Maritime Authority guys loved it when we registered the boat ;-)
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