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Old 16-03-2011, 04:46   #46
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Re: Somali Coast - Stay Away

HOT TOPIC!! Please, please steer away from political talk - that means not talking about governments and their policies... sorry folks - just a reminder.
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Old 16-03-2011, 05:24   #47
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Re: Somali Coast - Stay Away

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Originally Posted by Saucy Sailoress View Post
HOT TOPIC!! Please, please steer away from political talk - that means not talking about governments and their policies... sorry folks - just a reminder.
That means really not discussing the matter at all...
The matter of effective closing some 20 % of high seas to cruising.
Rather interesting for CRUISERS FORUM members. For some - simply vital. But - handling this problem depend solely on governments and their policies.
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Old 16-03-2011, 06:17   #48
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Re: Somali Coast - Stay Away

Probably the best thing sailors can do to encourage local governments, i.e. Caribbean, to clamp down on crime against sailors is to meticulously avoid going to places that have histories of their citizens accosting sailors. This includes people organizing sailing events. The information is out there and the sailnets are all instantaneously available. If locals are not capable of stamping out this kind of crime, they should not get our dollars. Money talks. Sail event organizers need to simply cancel upcoming events if sailors are assaulted. Sailors need to change plans once this kind of news hits the airwaves. Also, yacht clubs need to isolate local yacht clubs in these countries so they put pressure on local law enforcement. The sailing community is not exactly a poor one without financial teeth. The Somalian pirate issue is international but sailors can affect local sailing ports.
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Old 16-03-2011, 06:20   #49
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Re: Somali Coast - Stay Away

Is Private Escort Through Pirate Territory Really an Option?

Apparently not.

In response to a query, regarding armed escort through the Somali pirate zone, Mike at Naval Guards replied:

“I’m sure it would be cheaper to load your boat onto a cargo vessel than hiring an escort vessel. Costs are around 8-10,000 USD per day of escorting. We can on occasion give much better quotes if we are “empty” in the same direction you wish to transfer but that requires a bit of luck to get together.

We normally don’t do convoys of yachts, it is simply too dangerous. We could not effectively defend several yachts and we would never take on a boat under sail.”

For more information on Naval Guards, go to their web site at Naval Guards, Gulf of Aden Anti Piracy Security Services.

Original source ➥ Cruising Compass
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Old 16-03-2011, 06:45   #50
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Re: Somali Coast - Stay Away

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That means really not discussing the matter at all...
The matter of effective closing some 20 % of high seas to cruising.
Rather interesting for CRUISERS FORUM members. For some - simply vital. But - handling this problem depend solely on governments and their policies.
You're 100% correct.

However, you're missing the silver lining. Now rebuttals get truly challenging.

Solving the pirate problem is super easy--don't know why I never mentioned this before but--we simply need to get Israel, Jordon, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and India to form a joint naval peace keeping force to patrol the coast of Somalia and other pirate hot nations. We'd see a massive decrease in piracy.



On a more serious note. I also read some of the piracy reports off the ICC website and thought this was a cute one:

"Robbers in a speed boat boarded a general cargo ship underway. Alarm raised, crew mustered, fire hoses activated. Crew found one boat tied up to the aft bollard. The rope was immediately cut and the boat drifted away. Two robbers were found and detained by the crew. Later another boat hooked itself onto a pad eye on the hull. The detained robbers were allowed to climb down into the boat and leave the ship."

http://www.icc-ccs.org/home/piracy-r...details/50/162
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Old 16-03-2011, 07:58   #51
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Re: Somali Coast - Stay Away

I see the commercial ships as providing the funding for this. 1. They have the multimillion dollar payouts. The yachts are seen by the Somalians as "easy" targets. But I don't think the single million ransoms from yachts as enough money to cover the entire indian ocean. Once commercial ships take steps such as armed escourts. The number of successfull attacks should go down.

The biggest reason this hasn't stopped already is, the rule of engagement are TOO restrictive. Example; the incident with the yacht that was attacked that HAD an armed escourt. The escourt ship was NOT allowed to open fire until the priates actually boarded the ship. This has also been repeated with attacks on comercial ships. As long as the pirates are on their own boat they are left alone. The example above once the pirates asked to leave they were allowed to freely do so.

(An equivelent is a gang of armed men storm into a bank wearing masks, and order everyone on the floor. But the bank guards are not allowed to do anything until one of the men hands the teller a note demanding cash.)

We all see this as absurd, but the rules of engagement of Somalian pirates are no less absurd!

In the past we treated people as a group for a reason. It forced everyone to take a side. You are either on the side of freedom of the ocean, or piracy, (or king or the rebels, etc...). It caused even those who wanted to be neutral, or do nothing to take some action. Because if you did nothing, it was assumed you were on the other side and punished appropriately. A modern example would be if YOUR nation went to war with another nation , and you quietly went to work, voted, and paid your taxes, and enlisted your sons. YOU are responsible for the war, because YOU did nothing to stop, or slow down YOUR governments actions. And if the other nation retaliated, by embargo, or bombing YOUR work, or house. You really have no one to blame but yourself if your family starves, or YOUR house is destroyed by the other country...Why, because even though YOU don't make policy for YOUR governemt, they have limited ability to wage war without YOUR consent, implicent or otherwise. IF YOU stop paying YOUR taxes, or working at the munitions factory, YOU WILL be punished by YOUR government, but then YOU cannot be blamed for their actions. You say that would be an act of extreme bravery, (treason, stupidity, etc...), yes, but so is fighting a war. Everyone has a part to play, and a judgment to make. BUT! you say what if the war is justifiable? (save lives from genocide, topple a dictator, stop another country from slaughtering your fellow citizens, etc...)? Then support your government to the best of your ability, and do what is right in YOUR own judgement. But you cannot blame anyone else for what happens, or what consequences YOU may personally bear.

Poverty is no excuse for piracy, and in fact increases it. Other countries close to mine have made different choices. They are poor and DO not engage in piracy, but instead welcome tourists, and trade. Eventually these countries will get richer, and more developed, and they will get my business and money.
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Old 16-03-2011, 15:54   #52
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Re: Somali Coast - Stay Away

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I see the commercial ships as providing the funding for ...[lots of stuff]
I think making a comparison between Somalia and "poor countries around us" saying "well they didn't turn to piracy" is a little unfair. Remember there are varying degrees of poor. Most of those nations around the US that you are probably referring to can be though of as "redneck poor." Work hard, don't make much money, live in a trailer, bury their money in the yard, few educational opportunities.

Somalians have it significantly worse and have constantly been at war with themselves for 20 years. There is an entire generation there now that has only known war. It is one of the most violent and poorest places on the planet. This combined with the geography of the area makes piracy a damn good option for them.

That is part of the reason why I cringe a bit when you brought up the rules of engagement. Somalis don't have many opportunities outside of piracy and are not opposed to risking their lives in a fight if the stakes are high enough. This is why simply taking out some of the red-tape before blowing them out of the water isn't going to be as effective as you're probably envisioning. They have a lot less to lose than you do.

The rules of engagement as they stand now obviously aren't perfect, but how would you change them? I mean, remember these rules will apply the world over, not just in hostile regions. Do you really think the oceans of the world would be a safer place if it was OK to sink a boat just because it was small, filled with poor looking people, and heading in your general direction?
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Old 16-03-2011, 17:00   #53
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Re: Somali Coast - Stay Away

"'Rules of engagement'"

Looks like a pirate, smells like a pirate, off Somalia, is a pirate.

No questions should be entered into. Action.

Might be harsh but it is not time for harsh. The reality is beyoud a joke.
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Old 16-03-2011, 17:06   #54
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Re: Somali Coast - Stay Away

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"'Rules of engagement'"

Looks like a pirate, smells like a pirate, off Somalia, is a pirate.

On questions should be entered into. Action.
Rules of engagement apply to all modern politically controlled Militaries. They govern how a very powerful and well equipped figthening force acts when it is sent into a conflict.

You say "Action", Again I ask, are you prepared to sacrifice the hostages, possibly all 650 of them. what if they were your family. I ask because I find the question very difficult to answer, and i would like to hear what others think. However simply shouting ACTION, is useless.


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Old 16-03-2011, 17:56   #55
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Re: Somali Coast - Stay Away

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By action I mean that all the nations need to sort themselves out such that effective real action can be taken be all nations on high seas.
with due respect, this is just shouting at the corner. What do you mean by "effective real action". The reality is short of either an invasion of Somalia, or overt , first strike military action, which will probably sacrifice the hostages, all teh navies can do is "supress" the activity not eradicate it. We could be faced with 10 years of this probloem or even longer.

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Old 16-03-2011, 18:14   #56
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Re: Somali Coast - Stay Away

I guess we will just have to put up with the problem indefinitely and hope the Somali motherships don't expand their range any further.

I really would have liked to dive the red sea but just have to accept the fact its not going to happen.

We can but hope that all hostages will be freed soon and no more will be taken.
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Old 16-03-2011, 20:17   #57
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Re: Somali Coast - Stay Away

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Actually conflict resolutions all over the globe, forgive and forget, equally many,many conflicts are resolved without your kind of total warfare. ...[stuff]
Dave, if I ever run into you somewhere my first rule of engagement will be a high-five.

Something everyone should keep in mind:

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Old 16-03-2011, 21:45   #58
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Re: Somali Coast - Stay Away

"I think making a comparison between Somalia and "poor countries around us" saying "well they didn't turn to piracy" is a little unfair. Remember there are varying degrees of poor. Most of those nations around the US that you are probably referring to can be though of as "redneck poor." Work hard, don't make much money, live in a trailer, bury their money in the yard, few educational opportunities.

Somalians have it significantly worse and have constantly been at war with themselves for 20 years. There is an entire generation there now that has only known war. It is one of the most violent and poorest places on the planet. This combined with the geography of the area makes piracy a damn good option for them."

I can make a comparison. How about Haiti? One of the poorest countries in the world, a disfunctional gov't. for the last twenty years, an earthquake that destroyed what little infrastructure ther was. Imagine if they turned to piracy attacking boats from the Fl keys to the Virgin islands and the entire caribbean sea and then started moving into gulf of Mexico. Think it would be tolerated?
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Old 16-03-2011, 22:14   #59
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Re: Somali Coast - Stay Away

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