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Old 02-12-2009, 10:51   #16
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Historically, the problem of piracy has always been solved the same way, and only one way.

Someone decides "Enough of this crap" and spends the money to chase down and kill the pirates. Then the problem goes away, often dfor decades, until someone else thinks they can make a buck at the same old game.

Right now "everyone" is so busy being politically correct about "Well, gee, they might not really be pirates, they could be lost heavily armed fisherman with no fishing gear 500 miles off the coast..." that they've forgotten the lessons of history.

Send out the q-boats, send up the predators, keep a few fast attack aircraft in the area. tell the locals that approaching any foreign-flagged vessel over 100 miles out from the coast will be considered piracy and dealt with as piracy--unless everyone on the "boat" strips down nude and throws all arms (not just firearms, machetes too) into the water before they come within five miles of the vessel. If they are really innocents in distress begging for aid, they'll have no problem doing that.

Nothing more sophisticated needs to be done. As they say in Texas, "Some folks just need shootin."

If the Somali's and others don't think Kipling was right about "White Man's Burden" then they can damn well take their own responsibility for their own failed states. Can't have it both ways though, either they clean up their own act by themselves, or get squashed like any other roaches.

Yes, reality bites. Anyone who's offended to hear that, probably is part of the problem.
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Old 02-12-2009, 11:01   #17
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Historically, the problem of piracy has always been solved the same way, and only one way.

Someone decides "Enough of this crap" and spends the money to chase down and kill the pirates. Then the problem goes away, often dfor decades, until someone else thinks they can make a buck at the same old game.

Right now "everyone" is so busy being politically correct about "Well, gee, they might not really be pirates, they could be lost heavily armed fisherman with no fishing gear 500 miles off the coast..." that they've forgotten the lessons of history.

Send out the q-boats, send up the predators, keep a few fast attack aircraft in the area. tell the locals that approaching any foreign-flagged vessel over 100 miles out from the coast will be considered piracy and dealt with as piracy--unless everyone on the "boat" strips down nude and throws all arms (not just firearms, machetes too) into the water before they come within five miles of the vessel. If they are really innocents in distress begging for aid, they'll have no problem doing that.

Nothing more sophisticated needs to be done. As they say in Texas, "Some folks just need shootin."

If the Somali's and others don't think Kipling was right about "White Man's Burden" then they can damn well take their own responsibility for their own failed states. Can't have it both ways though, either they clean up their own act by themselves, or get squashed like any other roaches.

Yes, reality bites. Anyone who's offended to hear that, probably is part of the problem.
Yep!

.............
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Old 02-12-2009, 13:08   #18
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You have a country with no government and millions of people with no hope. Trying to find and kill the current pirates is ultimately a useless battle since there are plenty of replacements laying in wait. You have the local economies where the pirates live totally dependent on the income the pirates bring in for their survival. There are simply far too many interests at play to expect that they'd just roll over and curtail their activity in the face of being attacked. A fact of life the world over is desperate people take to desperate measures. It's far more likely that they themselves would start becoming more violent as well. Sending explosive laden speed boats to ram ships in one direction as a decoy, while they head off in another direction for a target vessel to pirate.

As it stands now, the pirating threat is the equivalent of driving through a bad neighborhood whilst on the freeway. Almost no one gives much thought to all the nefarious things mucking about on the streets adjacent to the freeway. But at any time, some gang bangers could climb up an embankment and point a gun at a car going by. Expecting the number of ships transiting those waters to be escorted would be akin to trying to have police escort all trucks transiting a 200 mile stretch of highway. It's simply a logistical impossibility. When one takes a gander at the number of pirate attacks in relation to the number of ships transiting those waters - it's so miniscule as to be of no considerable worry. Pirates make a good news story, but in real life terms - the actual problem is FAR blown out of proportion relative to reality...
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Old 02-12-2009, 13:37   #19
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set up a dummy ship and when the scum bags come sniffing around blow them out of the water why do we put up with these thugs ?enough is enough, time to rid the area of this menace they have no morals they are motivated by greed and what are we doing to stop them? going thru diplomatic channels asking please stop your pillaging of vessels i mean they progressed from attacking yachties to taking on tankers they are thumbing there nose to the western world and doing what they like because no one is stopping them? blow them out the water.....
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Old 02-12-2009, 13:40   #20
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Perhaps this is a slippery slope, but...

The number of US flagged ships has been dropping for years as other countries like Liberia offer tax advantages. Perhaps extending US military protection to US flagged ships would not only protect our interests but also help to reinvigorate our shipping industry. There are a couple of problems with this approach, not the least of which is cost. The ultimate solution must be land-based, as piracy will contiunue so long as there are people desparate enough to try it. We could also end up with a free rider problem. When a non-US flagged ship is attacked, the US can't refuse to help. Piracy is a powerful symbol, provoking a much stronger outcry than actual losses warrant. The loss of a feeling of safety is what requires our action, not actual losses. An equally powerful symbol that could restore confidence it the commitment of US forces to protect US flagged ships. I have grown tired of being the world's police force, then getting kicked around in the press for it. Time to put up a very visible symbol of the value of being American.

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Old 02-12-2009, 14:07   #21
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Perhaps this is a slippery slope, but...

The number of US flagged ships has been dropping for years as other countries like Liberia offer tax advantages. Perhaps extending US military protection to US flagged ships would not only protect our interests but also help to reinvigorate our shipping industry. There are a couple of problems with this approach, not the least of which is cost. The ultimate solution must be land-based, as piracy will contiunue so long as there are people desparate enough to try it. We could also end up with a free rider problem. When a non-US flagged ship is attacked, the US can't refuse to help. Piracy is a powerful symbol, provoking a much stronger outcry than actual losses warrant. The loss of a feeling of safety is what requires our action, not actual losses. An equally powerful symbol that could restore confidence it the commitment of US forces to protect US flagged ships. I have grown tired of being the world's police force, then getting kicked around in the press for it. Time to put up a very visible symbol of the value of being American.

Brett
Overall, good post; Id wonder about subsidizing private shipping industry (escorting ships), in a country that feels no urgent need for universal healtrh care.
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Old 02-12-2009, 14:34   #22
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Overall, good post; Id wonder about subsidizing private shipping industry (escorting ships), in a country that feels no urgent need for universal healtrh care.
Please don't tar us all with that brush.
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Old 02-12-2009, 15:57   #23
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The number of US flagged ships has been dropping for years as other countries like Liberia offer tax advantages.
Some times it really is all about the money. In a global economy the flag has little to do with the international companies responsible for the worlds shipping services. They pretty much can do what they like. Since the US is a major consumer of services we pay the freight charges.

For now oil transports will remain unarmed. Seems silly to start a shooting war when you sit on top of a a bomb. A large super tanker with 30 crew is IMPOSSIBLE to defend without fully automated weapons systems and advanced radar. To support a level of defense that could stop a shoulder fired grenade at close range does not technologically exist. It didn't work for the USS Cole either. For now a cheap personal weapon can stop a super tanker. They only need one close shot to cause total destruction. On the reverse the ship needs the luckiest shot ever made. It took days for the sharp shooters to get a clear shoot to kill the hostage takers and save the hostage. Very nice work, but it takes that long.
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Old 02-12-2009, 16:25   #24
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Ships already play the fire hoses to repel boarders , but short of razing the villages , sinking all boats and shooting any pirate ( understood as anyone who aproaches a ship uninvited and armed) on sight , that worked in the 17th century , I don't see a solution.
Lake Superior , you say "we should go and rebuild their country". Who exactly do you mean by "we" ? And looking at Somalia closely , do you honestly think that that is possible? Dream on , imagine all the people....

The french are now deploying 2 or 3 marines on each of their fishing vessels that work the area , and they will open fire after a warning. Every nation should follow suit and protect their own vessels.Maybe this would also help revert the shame of the use of convenience flags. As to cruising yachts , unless you have assault weapons and the skill and readiness to use them , just don't go there. Having said that. the convoy system could work nicely for cruisers , should they be willing to pay the costs...
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Old 02-12-2009, 16:29   #25
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Anybody know what percentage of vessels get attacked? 1 out of 100? 1,000? 10,000?
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Old 02-12-2009, 18:04   #26
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As a moderator you would have jumped on this in no time flat!

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Overall, good post; Id wonder about subsidizing private shipping industry (escorting ships), in a country that feels no urgent need for universal healtrh care.
You know Gord, we actually have it for most.

It is called Medicaid.

If you don't have any money all you have to do is stand in line and fill out forms - even after you have had the ER visit or the surgery etc - you will not pay anything. The govt. (tax payers) pay it.

Any body that has nothing and walks in gets the same care.

I see it every day.

They get care and pay nothing.

It is like the gun stuff here - WHOA NELLIE - Now I am really dragging this off your Off Topic line - The laws are in place and work. Just enforce what laws are there already.

One of our issues that you and others forget about are our porous borders that allow others to take advantage of our generosity. No other country allows that. You know this and fail to take it into account, like others. Try to get a work visa for an EU country, buy land in Mexico. GMAFB.

Now back to what this thread is about.

Quote:
To support a level of defense that could stop a shoulder fired grenade at close range does not technologically exist
Now I ain't no ballistic or arms expert but a RPG would do nothing to the side of a tanker. If one was lucky enough to put it up into the bridge, well OK. But since the other "experts" say that hitting a target with a weapon on the seas by a trained expert is hard to impossible then what are the chances that an untrained, unpracticed newbie to the RPG of doing that? I say, so small that it does not enter into the equation.

If I am wrong on that let an expert tell us how a RPG could do damage to a tanker. And if the expert is says it is easy then the stuff from Lodesman in reply to my post about poking a hole in the boat is a Duh!

Lost cargo - minuscule compared to what is lost accidentally each year.
Lost ship - insurance won't pay - act of war - Lost anyway as they have it.
Lost life - maybe. Small chance though on those big ships. I bet the hostages are in the cabins and not next to the propellers.

Anyway.

It is a quagmire and I am happy I am not forced to make the choice between the routes around said quagmire.

Best of luck to all that must transit the area.

Honestly - Best of luck to you all!
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Old 02-12-2009, 18:06   #27
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Anybody know what percentage of vessels get attacked? 1 out of 100? 1,000? 10,000?
125 attacks/ year out of 20,000 avg annual trips through the Gulf of Aden for commercial vessels.

1 attack every 14 months out of 400 avg annual trips through the gulf for private vessels. (You've a better chance of getting a stomach ache from the milk in your fridge than getting attacked by pirates as you travel through the gulf)
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Old 02-12-2009, 18:31   #28
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Overall, good post; Id wonder about subsidizing private shipping industry (escorting ships), in a country that feels no urgent need for universal healtrh care.
Quote:
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You know Gord, we actually have it for most.

It is called Medicaid.

The moderators really don't like to close threads and a quick search will show that all gun, politics, religion and piracy threads ultimately have to be closed to keep our community friendly.

Let's stick to piracy solution ideas and this thread may survive a while...

Thanks!
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Old 02-12-2009, 20:34   #29
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" Time to put up a very visible symbol of the value of being American."

Well, the snipers who rescued the Mersck crew certainly put some value back in the flag but I think it is the French who have been the first to take action on behalf of their citizens, and perhaps most active and aggressive towards the pirates.

The Colonies have had difficulties putting together any foreign policy since the War of 1812. It usually takes some politician willing to spin a Big Lie in order to get the American Public off their collective butts and into any sort of cohesive action. (Wasn't it Yamamoto who said "I fear we have awakened the tiger" when he was told that the US had not been given a formal declaration of war before Pearl Harbor was attacked?)

Then there's the Gulf of Tonkin Incident, which LBJ used to escalate the Vietnam War, subsequently proven to also be a total fabrication, or miscommunication, depending on which excuse you follow.

But to say there is an endless supply of pirates...that's just defeatist thinking. In a failed state such as Somalia, it doesn't take long to run out of wood to build boats. Or to run out of brave young men, after they start to realize that they're guaranteed a one-way trip.

But money is tight, wars are expensive, and political correctness counts for more votes than "Gee, do we know anyone who is in danger of pirates?"

Wait for some of that pirate money to be traced back, confirmed and traced back, to a terrorist attack that kills a thousand people in some Western nation. Or, more productively, and following nautical tradition, should we start a betting pool on the date? With a second pool for the body count of the incident itself?
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Old 02-12-2009, 23:10   #30
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" It took days for the sharp shooters to get a clear shoot to kill the hostage takers and save the hostage. Very nice work, but it takes that long."

Nope, it took that long before the officer in charge got tired of mister waffle not giving the order. He finally said, 'fook it, take the shot.' They did, the Whitehouse got irate, but took the credit.
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