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bricoleur · 10-01-2016, 12:21

Hi, Cruisers Forum, new poster here. I've been lurking for a few months and learning a lot (still an awful lot to learn). I've benefited greatly, and I especially appreciate the congeniality of all the contributors.

In my usual impetuous manner, I've just made an offer on a Westsail 32, only to find out that same evening about this thing called soldboats.com and the trove of comparable sales locked therein. Of course, now I'm beating myself up about that, but maybe it's not too late. My gut tells me that my offer isn't wayy over the line, but then, I'm new to the game and I could be very wrong. At this point, I'm looking around the table and not seeing the sucker, and we know what that means, at least in a poker game. (To be clear, I want only to pay a fair price for the boat, I'm not shooting for a rock-bottom bargain. I'd like to walk away from a win-win scenario.)

In my location, there is only one broker. Obviously, I can go back to this broker (the selling broker) and ask to see the comps, and I will, but I would like to get the data, as well as maybe a bit of analysis based on experience, from an impartial source as well. So my question is, would a broker (or a surveyor who had a soldboats account) be willing to sell me just that info and advice, even if I weren't a buying client? Or is there a better way that I'm not thinking of?

Liam Wald · 10-01-2016, 12:37

Hopefully your offer was written with the contingencies of sea trial and survey.
These are standard contingencies.
The first of the contingencies is typically "acceptance of sea trial". You are within the terms of the agreement to withdraw your offer based upon not accepting the results of the sea trial. In other words you can walk away if you simply do not like the way the boat sails.
At that point you have not spent any money and qualify to receive your deposit refunded in full.
If you accept the sea trial and move on to the survey you will pay for the survey but can do one of three things, 1) accept the survey at the agreed upon price in which case you are buying the boat. 2) reject the boat based upon the outcome of the survey (unless the survey shows that there are no repairs and recomendations and that the surveyed value is equal to or greater than the agreed upon price). 3) re-negotiate the purchase price based upon the results of the survey.
Unless you are a cash buyer the transaction will also be based upon financing being available to the buyer.
You have a long way to go and lots of wiggle room.

Drift Woods · 10-01-2016, 12:45

Boat pricing on web sites are often reported sales prices by brokers. Most are inflated to keep the market up. NADA has a boat pricing section and the numbers are often much lower. NADA uses sale prices of boats when registering and paying sales taxes.

bricoleur · 10-01-2016, 12:59

Thanks for the reassuring response! I'm so far out of my comfort zone I can't even remember what it looked like at this point.

Yes, it's contingent on survey and sea trial. At present, to save the cost of splashing and rehauling, the sea trial will likely happen *after* the survey, since the boat is currently on the hard. I guess that's why I'd like to get the data ASAP, so that if I'm really out of line I can reverse that order and save the cost of a survey, if that makes sense.

faa50 · 10-01-2016, 13:02

A couple of tips about Soldboats.com

I encourage you to consider Soldboats as only one source of several to aid you in deriving an offer price. On CF you can find several threads that highlight and discuss the various problems with Soldboat sold prices. It is becoming more widely known a certain small population of boat brokers are unscrupulous, provide false sold information for a variety of reasons. One simple clue that a sold price is most likely fraudulent: the ask price is same as sold price. In reality, boat brokers state that the probability of this occurring is less than 5%.

Brokers typically will be glad to offer this information, free of charge, as they usually consider it part of their service to a buyer. However, one never knows for sure if they have obtained all the relevant sales information. I typically ask for all sales of a model boat for the prior 24 months. Throw out any suspicious sales.

Using the Soldboat information, one can typically search the web for the original boat listing, which now shows sold. From the listing one can compare equipment, engine hours and gain a general understanding of the boat's condition from the pictures with a close examination. I use a spreadsheet with plus and minuses along with associated dollar amount to help me obtain comparable values. If listed with the USCG, you can learn how many owners - this provides you clues to possibly how the boat was maintained.

Buying a boat is a financial game. The better you become, the more likely you make a prudent purchase that stands the test of time. I've pointed out only a couple of tips, there is plenty to learn on this subject.

In regard to your concerns of backing out of the existing contract to possible reestablish your offer price. Most industry purchase agreements include the provisions that permit a buyer to cancel the deal given an unsatisfactory result from a personal inspection, sea trial and survey including mechanical oil analysis.

LLCoolDave · 10-01-2016, 13:15

Keep in mind that nearly 50% of these boats were sold as kits and then finished by the owners. Quality/Price will vary widely from factory boats to kit boats. Even comps might not give you a clear picture of value.

Maybe post what your offer is, pics will help and people can chime in.

Perstarebob · 10-01-2016, 13:16

General commercial law in most states will say that an offer can be withdrawn anytime before acceptance , in other words if you have not been notified of acceptance you may be allowed to withdraw , check with a lawyer in your state . It is not a contract until acceptance !

Liam Wald · 10-01-2016, 13:22

Hire your own surveyor. Do not let the broker who is the agent for the seller hire the surveyor as this is sometimes a conflict of interest.
The industry standard is to perform the sea trial first. It is the responsibility of the seller to make the boat available for sea trial. That means in the water with the engine running and all systems functioning in a manner that allows the boat to actually go sailing. On the hard you will not be able to start the engine, put it in gear to assess the tranny and drive lines, check the engine cooling pump, check tru-hulls for seepage or leaks, check the rudder post.
The other way to approach it is to have the survey and the sea trial on the same day.
Start with the boat on the hard, then splash it and sea trial it with the surveyor aboard.
How long has the boat been out of the water? Why is it out of the water? When were the systems last run?

Liam Wald · 10-01-2016, 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perstarebob

General commercial law in most states will say that an offer can be withdrawn anytime before acceptance , in other words if you have not been notified of acceptance you may be allowed to withdraw , check with a lawyer in your state . It is not a contract until acceptance !

This is very good advice.

bricoleur · 10-01-2016, 16:35

Thanks all for the responses! I did check NADA, and according to their data, I'm at least in the ballpark. Will see what the selling broker can come up with on soldboats.com, but I'm feeling more like I can trust my gut now than I did a few hours ago. It's a factory finished boat, and outfitted almost exactly the way I want, so I'm willing to be a little on the high side. Now I'm hoping they accept the offer so I can get on with it!

vjm · 10-01-2016, 17:12

Not to be nosey, but what is your sailing experience and what do you want to do with the boat? I only ask because that is a boat with a pretty specific function.

boatpoker · 10-01-2016, 17:43

I disagree with everything that has been said here about soldboats and NADA and don't forget BUC and ABOS. I have researched soldboats over thousands of surveys and have never seen a falsified number. I have indeed found some curious numbers and upon digging deeper found that they were invariably due to trade-in values or other complicating issues. I'm not saying it does not happen just that I work with this stuff daily and I've never seen it. PM me with an email address me and I will send you the soldboats data. You might also want to take a look at How Much Is She Worth ?

**roverhi** · 10-01-2016, 18:15

You'll really have hard time getting realistic price for a W32. The boats have been out of production for more than 30 years so use, abuse, maintenance, and condition will be all over the map. Have seen one listed at $50,000 that was a steal it was so well prepared and maintained. Have seen others for less than $10,000 that were only suitable for scrap. Then you've got the factory finished vice not factory built. Some of the non factory boats are exquisite equalling or exceding Hinckley quality and others are horrible either in design and/or finish.

The same issues go for other boats but I think Westsail 32's probably have the widest variation in quality and condition of the boat.

bricoleur · 10-01-2016, 19:36

boatpoker, I did read your link, last night, and found it very helpful. Thank you.

Also, I do realize that the age of the boat and a host of other factors in combination will make any definite conclusions about its actual "market value" suspect. And that can't be helped. Now that I know I'm not outside reasonable bounds, though, I'm satisfied that I can proceed with negotiations with the aim of mutual benefit to buyer and seller without that niggling doubt that I just totally screwed myself. That's good enough for me.

Thanks for everything that was suggested, I'm trying to absorb it all for the future. I'm as aware as I can be that I have a lot to learn yet.