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Old 12-05-2013, 12:51   #16
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Re: Snapped forestay , furlex furler, halyard wrap

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I'm sorry. I know I'm going on and on, but I think this is important. You said, "The halyard wrap problem was a minor intermittent nuisance ..."

No. It's an accident waiting to happen, and a you pointed out, it could do a lot of damage to your boat, to someone else's boat -- someone could get badly hurt.

ANY halyard wrap is a serious problem. Even if it only happens once (that you know of).
The reason it was a minor nuisanse was because i could usually get it unwrapped without applying much pressure - furl, unfurl, adjust tension, i went up in the bosens chair once to get it unfowled by hand because a loop got stuck in there, halyard tension was too loose.

However you are right that it is a serious problem because if your stuck in high wind with a sail that wont furl in your going.to either force it or trash the sail while it flutters and flaps in the blow.

Compounding the problem this time was that somehow the spinnaker halyard managed to get in on the fun along with the jib halyard. What a mess.
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Old 12-05-2013, 12:57   #17
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Re: Snapped forestay , furlex furler, halyard wrap

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Originally Posted by mr-canada View Post
I thought a spinnaker halyard was for flying a spinnaker. ;-)

Yes lowering the point at which the halyard is released by the mast to the furler certainly would diffuse the issue, as it wouldnt be able to wrap around anything, unless the furler top was jammed, which is another problem altogether.

Some folks at the yacht club suggested that after i get the sail, furler, and stay off that i could secure the mast with the spinnaker and jib halyards, and go up the mast to check out whats going on up top. Others suggested that i take the whole mast off, which sounds like a ton of work and a pain in the neck (where do i put a 40ish foot mast? How do i even move it?)

How did you manage to replace your forestays, and install the restrainer? DIY, use a rigger, go up the mast with halyards keeping her steady, or.remove the mast?

Oh I don't have the skills for anything that important. I had a rigger do it. I certainly wouln't take the mast off. For what purpose??? But it just shows you how many people just don't know anything about this really very common problem. The restrainer is extremely easy to install. The forestay is harder because you have to have confidence in that mast, but riggers are used to all that. I wasn't there when they did it -- they didn't come when they said they would -- so I didn't see that part of it done.

As for the "purpose" of a spinnaker halyard, what is yours doing right now? Flying a mast, and thank goodness you had it.

I've also used it to hold a "tent" up over the bow of the boat to help keep the boat cool, and to load awkward things onto the boat -- like my refrigerator, which is just the height of the settee. We tied a line securely around the refrigerator, and then winched it off the dock and on to the boat with the spinnaker halyard. Much less likely that someone will hurt themslves handing a somewhat heavy, awkward thing, or banging it on the boat, or droppping it in the marina ...

Oh yeah to secure the mast when we realized that the forestay was compromised. don't want to leave that one out!

Did you see the little thing about "McGyvering" things at the bottom of the article? The halyard restraint is the known and proven solution, but sailors LOVE to problem-solve. I think it might be the one thing we all have in common, and of course we love the ideas we''ve thought up ourselves the best. You'll get all kinds of suggestions, but the one to use a halyard restraint comes from my furler maufacturer, and a naval architect, and someone else who works on boats that I really respect. This isn't the time to re-invent the wheel. You really don't want this happening again. Besides the fact that I don't think you're going to get away with $250 to reaplace the forestay, you don't want to sail with an (unknown to you) compromised forestay because you didn't realize it had happened again.

If you look at the pictures, the damage to mine doesn't look nearly as bad as the other one, but numerous people assure me that I had plenty to worry about there, especially since it was already compromised and most certainly would be again.

My friends sheilled out about $700 -- TWICE within 48 hours -- because the first replacement didn't include a halyard restraint. And believe me, the guy who sold them on him doing the first replacement sounded *very* credible.
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Old 12-05-2013, 13:14   #18
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Re: Snapped forestay , furlex furler, halyard wrap

Yes, i saw the parts about mcgyvering. I think that most of the electrical on board is in that category. Teck cable to lamp wire, back to teck cable then to speaker wire. My engine mechanic is also an electrician, he checked it out and it is ok, but certainly not a professional job, lol.

My sailing instructor figured $250 for the stay brand new for a boat of my size. Im guessing your $750 figure includes $500 for the riggers time, travel and labour or something near that. The guy who suggested securing the mast with two halyards to go up the mast and fix it is a hard core racer who has been on boats with snapped forestays on races like victoria bc to maui (they came in third despite the epic fail). He had a friend have the same problem as me, she also killed the furler and got a similar furler to what i have, thats where the $4000 came from, im surprised at how expensive the furler that came with my boat is, thats what i paid for the whole boat.

I have found a few riggers here in town but my boat is out of town and there are no riggers up there. Thankfully its only an hour and a half away.

I also have a work colleague who is a racer with 25 years experience, ill.see if she knows anyone who would do the work without chargine me typical marine repair markups.

Anyone replaced a forestay themselves? Seems pretty straightforward provided you get one professionally made to the right length.
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Old 12-05-2013, 13:19   #19
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Re: Snapped forestay , furlex furler, halyard wrap

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Originally Posted by mr-canada View Post
Yes, i saw the parts about mcgyvering. I think that most of the electrical on board is in that category. Teck cable to lamp wire, back to teck cable then to speaker wire. My engine mechanic is also an electrician, he checked it out and it is ok, but certainly not a professional job, lol.

My sailing instructor figured $250 for the stay brand new for a boat of my size. Im guessing your $750 figure includes $500 for the riggers time, travel and labour or something near that. The guy who suggested securing the mast with two halyards to go up the mast and fix it is a hard core racer who has been on boats with snapped forestays on races like victoria bc to maui (they came in third despite the epic fail). He had a friend have the same problem as me, she also killed the furler and got a similar furler to what i have, thats where the $4000 came from, im surprised at how expensive the furler that came with my boat is, thats what i paid for the whole boat.

I have found a few riggers here in town but my boat is out of town and there are no riggers up there. Thankfully its only an hour and a half away.

I also have a work colleague who is a racer with 25 years experience, ill.see if she knows anyone who would do the work without chargine me typical marine repair markups.

Anyone replaced a forestay themselves? Seems pretty straightforward provided you get one professionally made to the right length.

I *think* they used my old forestay for the measurement. You still have it? I'm just not going to tell you how to go safely up the mast. Outside of the things I have learned, mostly the hard way, so I don't want to go there! But two halyards does sound pretty secure. But then what do you use for a safety line?
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Old 12-05-2013, 13:31   #20
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Re: Snapped forestay , furlex furler, halyard wrap

It was suggested to use the two halyards to secure the mast and go up on the main halyard. As for a safety i dont think there are any lines left, so id have to keep a tight grip on the mast, i guess. I have self tailing winches and clam cleats all over the place, so it would be a risk id have to live with, i guess.
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Old 12-05-2013, 14:28   #21
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Re: Snapped forestay , furlex furler, halyard wrap

IF I am understanding things correctly, your forestay has parted near the top and the furled sail is still attached to the halyard. You wish to get the mess down so that you can see where it has broken. What I have done in this situation is to disconnect the stay at the deck level, lift it over the lifelines and onto the dock (or in our case in Vanuatu, into the dinghy), where an assistant holds on to it. Then one slowly eases the halyard while the assistant walks (or rows) away. Pretty soon the whole thing is lying down and you have access to the top of it and can determine just what is broken. You also remove the sail from the furler, of course, at this point.

When you have made the requisite repairs (new stay, new attachment at the mast, whatever...) use the genoa halyard (lowest stretch, usually) to support the mast, go up on the main halyard (more secure usually that the spinny halyard) and use the genoa halyard to hoist the stay and furler back up for reattachment. This does not leave a halyard for a safety line, but really, if the gear is inspected and in good nick all should be well. The riggers that I see in action don't use safety lines at all, BTW. Once the new/repaired stay is in place, come back down, load up the rig and rehoist the sail.

Oh... the halyard restrainer (or whatever you choose to call it) is a simple install. Usually it is just a sort of saddle screwed to the front of the mast a few inches below where the halyard exits. It may not even be necessary -- have a good look at the angle between the loaded halyard and the stay, and compare it to that recommended by Furlex. Another option often used is to put a strop between the halyard swivel and the head of the sail such that the swivel is at the top of the furler extrusion. This usually makes the distance between swivel and sheave so short that wrapping is not an issue.

Finally, if you simply can't bear to be up the mast without some sort of backup, some folks use a loop of line or webbing Prussic hitched around the mast and attached to your bosun's chair. You simply slide it up the mast as you go up, and if something breaks it stops you from a dive. Of course, you must stop and re-attach things when you go past the spreaders!

It isn't a really difficult job to DIY, so give it a go...

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 12-05-2013, 17:05   #22
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Re: Snapped forestay , furlex furler, halyard wrap

Great advice

I am guessing that provided the forestay is the correct length, tensioning it is relatively easy with a wrench?
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Old 13-05-2013, 12:34   #23
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Re: Snapped forestay , furlex furler, halyard wrap

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Great advice

I am guessing that provided the forestay is the correct length, tensioning it is relatively easy with a wrench?

Isn't this a great place, Mr. Canada? Please come back and let us know how it all works out!
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Old 13-05-2013, 12:42   #24
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Re: Snapped forestay , furlex furler, halyard wrap

i chatted with a rigger, he says the forestay would be about $100 and to have them install it would be $500-$700 all in.

Im going to chat with some people at the yacht club and see if anyone has experience and would be willing to help me out. failing that, I'm going to be dropping a bunch of cash to just get it done.

apparently the rivets in the furler foil will need to be drilled out and put back in, thats what the rigger said to me on the phone... and I dont have any kind of tools to replace rivets
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Old 13-05-2013, 12:58   #25
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Re: Snapped forestay , furlex furler, halyard wrap

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Originally Posted by mr-canada View Post
i chatted with a rigger, he says the forestay would be about $100 and to have them install it would be $500-$700 all in.

Im going to chat with some people at the yacht club and see if anyone has experience and would be willing to help me out. failing that, I'm going to be dropping a bunch of cash to just get it done.

apparently the rivets in the furler foil will need to be drilled out and put back in, thats what the rigger said to me on the phone... and I dont have any kind of tools to replace rivets

I thought it would be more in that price range. I hope everyone who has read this thread has gone out with a pair of binocs to inspect both the top of their forestays and how their headsail halyard leads to it.
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Old 13-05-2013, 13:06   #26
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Re: Snapped forestay , furlex furler, halyard wrap

he also said that the halyard restrainer is only a few bucks and worth the install
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Old 13-05-2013, 13:24   #27
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Re: Snapped forestay , furlex furler, halyard wrap

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he also said that the halyard restrainer is only a few bucks and worth the install
He'll already be up the mast, so there's very little extra labor. My picture shows a more elaborate piece of hardware with a roller, but sometimes all it takes is a strap eye. I'm sure that depends at least partly on the size of the boat.

All of this kind of made me nostalgic for the hank-on headsails on my first, smaller, boat, but this is a tall mast and it's just not realistic. Personally I hate my roller furler. All I have to do is win the lottery and it's gonna be history!
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Old 13-05-2013, 13:42   #28
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Re: Snapped forestay , furlex furler, halyard wrap

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he also said that the halyard restrainer is only a few bucks and worth the install
It's funny how the details of my incident come creeping back into my mind (I figure that like most people, I try to block traumatic events!) ...

but the rigger came with a fully equipped truck, and made the new forestay at the marina.
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Old 25-06-2013, 19:29   #29
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Re: Snapped forestay , furlex furler, halyard wrap

Well the saga continues. I talked with some very old salty salty dogs and they recommended that I go with the rigger. Said it will be cheaper in the long run, and I agree with them.

I chatted with the manufacturer of my Seafurl 705 LD furler and got the original manual. Turns out that they recommend 1 & 3/4 " between the top of the furler foil and the swage at the top of the headstay. My boat has about 5-6" which explains in part the halyard wrap problems and the very finicky way I have to adjust the halyard tension to keep the halyard from wrapping.

I can see why the person who installed the furler did it - you buy foil segments in 3-5 foot lengths and to buy one to only hack off the first 3-4 inches seems rediculous. I've advised the riggers I'm seeking a quote from of this issue and hope that they can find a chunk of Seafurl compatible foil from scrap or something.

A halyard restrainer ironically was not recommended by the furler manufacturer. They simply recommended another chunk of foil and having the installation done as per the factory recommendations. I think that the halyard restrainer may actually negate the need for it, but they say otherwise.

Also worthy of note is that the stay did not break in and of itself, it snapped out of the swage. Interesting for some experiencing this problem on a tight budget - a crafty rigger might be able to reswage the stay into a new pin and not replace the sucker at all, although I dont know if it would have the same strength. I was under the impression that the successive halyard wrap problems had caused some meathooks up there making the problem progressively worse until it snapped - but it actually just popped out of the swage. Might save me a hundred bucks on the stay because the rest of it is in great condition.

I had so many different people at the yacht club with so many different opinions. Given that my Seafurl is a line drive (continuous) its not so easy to just disconnect the stay at the bottom and slowly bring it down. There is a whack of deck hardware that the continuous line runs through that would have to be removed - the other option being to hack through it but it needs to be continuous thickness braided at the joint which is pretty hard to do. I love my continuous furler I dont understand why they ever did it any other way so I dont want that line hacked apart. Beyond my rope skills.

My advice to anyone else suffering the same fate: if you dont know how to do it already get the rigger. I heard some pretty awful tales from some very experienced sailors about doing the rigging themselves. One hilarious one about a home made dinghy that got demasted in a light breeze and furious paddling to try to get back to shore until the boat capsized. The remaining guy on board tossed a life jacket, and the overboard guy threw it back at him because he was standing in four and a half feet of water as the beach was shallow. They pulled the boat back and got the rigging done by a rigger and the boat lasted for 45 years with no further rigging ever needed.

I had a lot of people with a lot of different ideas on how to go about it but it made me wary. In squamish there are regular 30 knot winds on a sunny day and I dont want to take any chances. If this thing came unwound at sea I would be wishing I had bolt cutters aboard to drop the whole rig in the water which makes me cringe at the expense.
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Old 25-06-2013, 19:36   #30
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Re: Snapped forestay , furlex furler, halyard wrap

I got rid of my jib furler because I didn't want the risk. I've seen several forestays snap with roller furlers, despite the fact that no one with a roller furler wants to acknowledge that. Pardey's have commented on the same fact.
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