Sloop, Cutter, Ketch or Cutter-ketch?

[hooligan6a]

I have owned 12 sailboats. three were ketches. Hardly ever used the mizzen. three were cutters. used the staysail a few times. I now have a cutter
and sail her as a sloop. The only reason some people buy a ketch is they look salty. Another sail and cover to buy, more rigging to mess with, more strings to pull, . for what? another 1/2 knot on a beam reach. Keep it simple, buy a sloop.

[pelicans]

We completed a 5 year circumnavigation in a 49ft centre cockpit, cutter ketch a few years back. For a family with three small kids at the time it was the perfect sail combination. Easy to handle, plenty of options.

Upwind the mizzen didn't add a lot unless it was blowing. Then a small foresail, well reefed main and mizzen was a perfect set of three small sails all working together and again, very manageable.

Down wind, (on those long ocean passages especially) our perfect set up was the two jibs up, one poled to windward and the mizzen. The twin foresails balanced the boat, stopped the rolling and the mizzen added a knot, far enough aft that it did not interfere with the jibs. Easily held crusiing speed all day and night. A big plus was not having the big main up at all. Meant we could very easily respond to rising winds, squalls etc without worrying about getting the damn thing down! No need to shorten sail at night for safety. Also no chaffing of the batten pockets etc on the stays with the boom out.

So, folk say they don't use the mizzen. Depends on the type of cruising you plan. Pottering around the bay, it is a bit of an extra fiddle, but passage making in the trades it is a wonderful thing to have.

The only downside, as others have mentioned, is that there is more rigging, more sails etc, which adds to the maintenance and replacement costs.

And it is more "salty"

[Scrimshaw4]

One of the drawbacks to the cutter rig is tacking the Jib/Genoa through the slot. It can be a pain, particularly in light air.

[CptCrunchie]

Originally Posted by Scrimshaw4

One of the drawbacks to the cutter rig is tacking the Jib/Genoa through the slot. It can be a pain, particularly in light air.

If we were racing, I agree with you. But when we are on one set for a week at a time, it isn't such a big deal.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Scrimshaw4

One of the drawbacks to the cutter rig is tacking the Jib/Genoa through the slot. It can be a pain, particularly in light air.

Not with a push button hydraulic furling device like our Reckmann.

[bailsout]

I have a Herreshoff 28 ketch modified with cutter rig and bowsprit makes it 35 overall. We love her. The mizzen is always the first sail up and the last sail down. I always sail into my slip with the mizzen-no motor. We have yet to reef the main; we just don’t put it up or we just take it down- easier than reefing. I have found my last boat unless I lose her. If I have to find another it will be a ketch.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by CptCrunchie

If we were racing, I agree with you. But when we are on one set for a week at a time, it isn't such a big deal.

CptCrunchie, If the only time you set sail is to cross an ocean your point is possibly valid however if you sail locally where beating is sometimes necessary then the ability to tack without difficulty is nice. In fact I found that sailing in your area (Sequim Bay) and the surrounding waters, good maneuverability and being able to tack on a shift makes sailing more efficient. Try sailing to PA on a summer afternoon and I think you'll find that tacking is pretty valuable.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Not with a push button hydraulic furling device like our Reckmann.

Let's see if I understand: To tack your (cutter?) boat you use the hydraulic furler to roll up the genoa, then you turn the boat, then unroll the genoa on the other side?

Now if only you had a "tack" button the boat could do all those things for you with just one button push, and if you could do it by a iPhone app, well hell, you could do it from down below on your settee looking out the deckhouse windows, or even from home on your couch maybe.

But be careful you don't bend anything with all that hydraulic power.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Let's see if I understand: To tack your (cutter?) boat you use the hydraulic furler to roll up the genoa, then you turn the boat, then unroll the genoa on the other side?

Now if only you had a "tack" button the boat could do all those things for you with just one button push, and if you could do it by a iPhone app, well hell, you could do it from down below on your settee looking out the deckhouse windows, or even from home on your couch maybe.

But be careful you don't bend anything with all that hydraulic power.

Tacking a cutter is not a big deal with a well designed rig (reasonable space between the forestays) and -- important! -- low friction sun strip on the staysail.


To answer the OP's question -- just another opinion -- I like ketches very much, and the advantages have been well described, but be aware that the extra windage does hurt performance upwind.



For best performance in a ketch, you want the masts to be as far apart as possible and you want the mizzen to be as close as possible in size to the main. This is hard to achieve in smaller boats, but starts to work well over 50'.


For practical, long distance cruising you want as much variety in the sail plan as possible. Headsails lose most of their performance when you start to reef them, so best of all is when the rig allows you smoothly reduce sail area without ever reefing a headsail. I've achieved that on my cutter by using a high aspect blade jib as the principle headsail. I can reef the main and leave the jib fully out until over 30 knots of wind, and from there I can put away the jib and continue with staysail. This is really important if you do much sailing upwind.


Cutter is good, but double-headed ketch offers even much more sail plan flexibility, subject however to the disadvantage upwind. Perhaps not noticeable if you are sailing in the trades and don't beat much.


Flexibility in sail plan is so important that my ideal boat might really be a ketch, rigged something like a Sundeer 64.


I cruised in a sloop for a couple of decades and would never go back to it. Just not enough flexibility without changing sails, and this is difficult for a short handed crew, and maybe impossible in stiff conditions.


The staysail of a cutter or double-headed ketch is a built-in, ready rigged storm jib -- another very significant advantage for when the weather blows up unexpectedly, important for those who venture far from home or far out to sea.

[CptCrunchie]

Originally Posted by wingssail

CptCrunchie, If the only time you set sail is to cross an ocean your point is possibly valid however if you sail locally where beating is sometimes necessary then the ability to tack without difficulty is nice. In fact I found that sailing in your area (Sequim Bay) and the surrounding waters, good maneuverability and being able to tack on a shift makes sailing more efficient. Try sailing to PA on a summer afternoon and I think you'll find that tacking is pretty valuable.

Most of our wind is from the west, so to get out of the Sound, it is tacking all the way. And if I was only sailing from Sequim Bay to PA, I would be starting out heading north past Port Williams past the lighthouse on the beam for 5 miles - if I could get any kind of consistent wind there - then turn NW for an hour (10 miles), then SW for an hour (10 miles). If I was to sail that, I doubt I would even use the staysail on a 50' boat, because I'd just be getting it up when we'd have to tack it.

But IF the staysail was furled, I'd likely use it.

[Mainstreet]

I sailed a Morgan 462 Ketch for two plus years cruising Florida and the Bahamas. Earlier I sailed a Cheoy Lee offshore 33 cutter or staysail Ketch for three years on the Great Lakes. Both were essentially solo (my wife being a great and loving passenger). For my money a staysail ketch has it over a masthead Ketch in terms of sail area choices and balance especially in heavy weather. As to issues in tacking, in a cruising environment that may occur twice a day at most and can be easily accomplished using either furling gear or accepting a bit of chafe. I’ve sailed sloops many times and owned a few. The rig is fine for small boats in daysail and coastal work but in a blow especially an extended one in blue water, give me a staysail Ketch under jib and jigger any day for a safe comfortable and balanced ride.

[CruisingKitty]

We sail a Bowman 57 center cockpit cutter ketch. We've crossed the Atlantic 3 times and have loved it all the way. We just had the standing rigging replaced after 15 years of sailing. It was quite expensive but worth it. Here's a blog post I wrote about our experience with the sail configuration possibilities.

https://aleriasadventures.blogspot.c...ketch-rig.html

[Saleen411]

What about a cat ketch or a cat schooner?

Look at this smaller Cat Ketch with only ONE sail raised, smoke by a 48 foot cutter! .....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFle9YZCzLw

[MJH]

Originally Posted by CptCrunchie

I'm sure this topic has been discussed at length, though with the advancement of technology and some new experiences, some may have changed their preference. I read the other thread from 2007, but while many had their preference, but for a few, they didn't say their reasons.

Wifey and I are looking for a sailboat in the 50'-ish range. While we have definite ideas of what we want, this subject continues to come up. I ask this because there are a ton of ketches on the market, ....but I don't understand the concept off them.

I want a cutter. I've raced 3 of them (the cutter-ketch being the exception) and really like how a cutter seems to pull the bow through the waves. I believe it is because most of the power is forward of the mast. I also really like the sail options. In fact, I was on one full keel cutter with the headsail mounted 6' forward of the bow on the end of the bowsprit, and when the telltales were set, it pretty much sailed itself.

IME, the mizzen on a ketch felt like it added a ton of weather helm when sailing close, up to a beam reach. Abaft of that seemed okay, though the captain would usually bring the mizzen in - not sure why, and I didn't ask. I will admit, though, the boat handled completely differently without it - easier.

Which leads to the more seemingly balanced cutter-ketch. While this too would bring the power back to the bow, does it actually balance the load? Moreover, how often would the mizzen get used?

The last determining factor (like all sailing couples) is Wifey. At 5'4", she fights with winches. I'm thinking that a cutter with its 3 smaller sails would be easier to handle than 4 smaller sails or a sloop, particularly when we are planning to do a lot of gunkholing through the South Pacific ourselves.

Which brings up a boat I'm seriously looking at. It's a cutter with 3 electric winches. My issue is that it is little more of a project boat than a ketch I found. While the ketch does have an inside stay, my beliefs are preventing me from even considering it.

I'm not asking which one is better; that has likely been hashed over well into inane conversation. If I may ask, what is YOUR preference, and why?

My third and current boat is a cutter, the previous two were sloops and smaller, 22' and 28'. It is important to remember that a true cutter is more than just two forward sails as the mast is designed to a position further aft...a point few mention. If you add an inner stay to a sloop you do NOT have a cutter; you have a sloop with inner stay, usually on an as-needed basis with an adjustable turnbuckle.

It took a while for me to learn how to sail the cutter but when the winds get sporty the cutter is my choice as the staysail is already in position and working; dual headsails for offshore cruising are the way to go. If you want to race get a sloop.

As far as tacking is concerned you tack the jib/genoa first and then the staysail...the staysail helping to push the jib/genoa over...if the jib/genoa won't go over, start the engine and motor, you just don't have enough wind anyway. Those sailing a cutter as a sloop upwind are at a disadvantage due to the increased distance between bow and mast....they should have bought a sloop.

One advantage of the ketch/yawl is the use of the mizzen sail while at anchor to steady the boat with increased winds...a built-in riding sail. An old friend just sold his 44' ketch and he would always hoist the mizzen first to steady the boat before hoisting the main, then genoa.

Good Luck.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[Jimmyhenry]

We have a Cal 2-46 ketch centre cockpit. Most of the time we sail with the head sail and the mizzen. Balanced and plenty of power. Easy for the two of us to handle and gives 6-7 knots in light air. .
South Pacific cruising is what we do from our home in Whitianga NZ. Watermaker is high on the priorities. Also a big boom tent over the bimini as it gets hot down here.
A decent size engine room /workshop and tool storage area. We need to be self sufficient as most of our cruising is where we have to look after ourselves.
A big rain catcher is good. Saves running the Watermaker and when it rains in the islands it buckets down.
Wind generator and solar power and a big alternator on the engine and you will not run out of power.
We also like our 3kilowatt inverter. Toaster. Coffee grinder. Bread maker. Microwave. Mixers etc.

Pete