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Old 20-02-2018, 21:59   #211
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Phillip, you are absolutely correct.

There is an excellent publicly available USCG database that includes the last 12 years of accident data for the USA. I have referenced it often, and I encourage everyone to spend the time poking around it:

https://bard.knightpoint.systems/Pub...e/Report1.aspx

It is searchable in many forms, including accident type, cause, and type of vessel. You are absolutely correct. Overwhelmingly the accidents involve "Open motorboat”, "Personal watercraft” and "Cabin motorboat”. “Auxiliary sailboat comes in a very distant fourth.

This is why I have repeated numerous times here that this demand for mandatory insurance is a solution in search of a problem. The data shows it. Insurance companies know it. The price of liability insurance proves it.

There is no epidemic of cruising level boats causing great harm to others. Aberrant or unusual events aside, there is no big problem to solve here.
Hi Mike,

"...a solution in search of a problem." Oh, that's hitting the nail on the head. I characterized it as hysteria. I believe it to be caused by squeaky wheel syndrome.

I'm sure you are aware, but I will repeat this for the gentle reader. "Auxiliary sailboat" is in fact a motor cruiser with a moderate sized sail to assist in fuel economy and to steady the boat in rolling seas. It is popularly called a Motorsailer, as the sail is the auxiliary power. It's main power is an engine.
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Old 21-02-2018, 01:23   #212
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

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It is searchable in many forms, including accident type, cause, and type of vessel. You are absolutely correct. Overwhelmingly the accidents involve "Open motorboat”, "Personal watercraft” and "Cabin motorboat”. “Auxiliary sailboat comes in a very distant fourth.
Unfortunately, the site shown misses a critical factor when considering crash rates.

How many of each type of boat are there an how often are they used?

Cabin Motorboat has approx 3 times as many crashes compared to Auxiliary Sail but depending on the exact definition they are using, there could easily be 10 times as many Cabin Motorboats implying Auxilaly Sail is more likely to be involved in a crash and thus a better target for insurance requirements.

Even more important is how often are the boats used.

Of course, if sailboats were drastically less likely to have a claim, insurance companies would have adjusted the rates to reflect the difference.
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Old 21-02-2018, 01:51   #213
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

When I hear the words "government" and "mandatory" in the same sentence, I generally walk the other way. That said, boating, like driving, is a privilege, not a right. We have "uninsured boater coverage" with our own boating policies, even as auto insurance covers us for damages from uninsured motorists- but I assume that our rates are higher for it in both cases. I'd be curious to know if auto insurance premiums came down in any of the states shortly after they enacted mandatory auto insurance laws. The answer might surprise.
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Old 21-02-2018, 07:13   #214
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

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Phillip, you are absolutely correct.


... this demand for mandatory insurance is a solution in search of a problem.

There is no epidemic of cruising level boats causing great harm to others. Aberrant or unusual events aside, there is no big problem to solve here.
Mike and Phillip, you are spot on.
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Old 22-02-2018, 09:32   #215
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

"...boating, like driving, is a privilege, not a right." Citations please.

Is this your 'feelings' on the matter or can you back it up? I would like to know where you came upon this egregiously erroneous conclusion. All subsequent presumptions in your argument are predicated upon this falsehood, so I will wait for your response before responding in full. Thank you.

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When I hear the words "government" and "mandatory" in the same sentence, I generally walk the other way. That said, boating, like driving, is a privilege, not a right.
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Old 22-02-2018, 10:58   #216
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

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Hi Mike,

"...a solution in search of a problem." Oh, that's hitting the nail on the head. I characterized it as hysteria. I believe it to be caused by squeaky wheel syndrome.

I'm sure you are aware, but I will repeat this for the gentle reader. "Auxiliary sailboat" is in fact a motor cruiser with a moderate sized sail to assist in fuel economy and to steady the boat in rolling seas. It is popularly called a Motorsailer, as the sail is the auxiliary power. It's main power is an engine.
I guess it depends on if you put the quotation marks around the motor of sailer?
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Old 22-02-2018, 11:21   #217
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

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Hi Mike,
I'm sure you are aware, but I will repeat this for the gentle reader. "Auxiliary sailboat" is in fact a motor cruiser with a moderate sized sail to assist in fuel economy and to steady the boat in rolling seas. It is popularly called a Motorsailer, as the sail is the auxiliary power. It's main power is an engine.
Hi Phillip,
I was always under the impression that there is a difference between an auxiliary sailboat and a motor sailer, although I agree with your definition of a motor sailer. I saw an older definition that was something along these lines: The auxiliary sailor sails faster on sails than with the sails and motor. The motor sailer is faster with both sails and motor. Again, it's been a while since I've seen this so I apologize if I am off a little.

Per the Encyclopedia Britannica; "An auxiliary sailboat is basically designed as a sailing craft but is powered with an internal-combustion engine for use in adverse weather conditions and for maneuvering in confined spaces. The motor sailer, by contrast, is designed mainly to operate as a motorboat but is equipped with sail for auxiliary power."
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Old 22-02-2018, 11:42   #218
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

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Hi Phillip,
I was always under the impression that there is a difference between an auxiliary sailboat and a motor sailer, although I agree with your definition of a motor sailer. I saw an older definition that was something along these lines: The auxiliary sailor sails faster on sails than with the sails and motor. The motor sailer is faster with both sails and motor. Again, it's been a while since I've seen this so I apologize if I am off a little.

Per the Encyclopedia Britannica; "An auxiliary sailboat is basically designed as a sailing craft but is powered with an internal-combustion engine for use in adverse weather conditions and for maneuvering in confined spaces. The motor sailer, by contrast, is designed mainly to operate as a motorboat but is equipped with sail for auxiliary power."
The problem is these definitions are outdated and poorly defined.
- Poorly defined: In storm conditions, most "motor sailors" can go faster under sail. In light conditions, most "auxilliary sailors" can motor faster than they can sail. Without a definition of conditions, boats will flip flop between definitions.
- Outdated: In the old days, adding a motor sufficient to make hull speed against tough conditions was hard to come by unless you truly committed to a design focused on motoring. In the modern world, it's rare to have even a high performance sailing focused boat that can't motor at hull speed against a 20kt headwind.
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Old 22-02-2018, 11:49   #219
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

The nomenclature I have learned is that "Auxiliary sailboat” means a sailboat which also has an engine. Of that, a subset would be what we call a “motorsailor”. But to know for sure we’d have to look up the definitions as used in this database.

However this term is defined though, it makes no real different to the point. The USCG database identifies 55,100 accidents involving 73,069 vessels over the last 12 years. This in itself tells you how exceedingly small the risk is, given there are about 12 million documented boats in the USA (and many more millions that are undocumented).

Even if you take the most conservative view, and lump ALL sail-related vessel types together, you still only get 3,905 out of the 73,069 total.

Now, Valhalla is quite right. This data is missing a key factor: crash rates. We don’t know from this data how many hours of use each type of boat tallies up in those 12 years. If anyone has any data that illuminates this question I’d love to see it. At this point we just don’t know.

But any reasonable assessment of the accident data will still conclude that, no matter how you slice it, the risks involved in using a cruiser-type of sailboat are very low.
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Old 22-02-2018, 12:20   #220
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Operating a boat, car or plane in public space is not a right because it is not in the constitution. That is why the state is free to compel registration, license, insurance, etc. If you own a private road or lake you can ignore all regulations but private airspace is not an option.
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Old 22-02-2018, 12:31   #221
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

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Hi Phillip,
I was always under the impression that there is a difference between an auxiliary sailboat and a motor sailer, although I agree with your definition of a motor sailer. I saw an older definition that was something along these lines: The auxiliary sailor sails faster on sails than with the sails and motor. The motor sailer is faster with both sails and motor. Again, it's been a while since I've seen this so I apologize if I am off a little.

Per the Encyclopedia Britannica; "An auxiliary sailboat is basically designed as a sailing craft but is powered with an internal-combustion engine for use in adverse weather conditions and for maneuvering in confined spaces. The motor sailer, by contrast, is designed mainly to operate as a motorboat but is equipped with sail for auxiliary power."
It's all semantics.
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Old 22-02-2018, 12:55   #222
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Now that I read your reply, my aged synapses started firing and you may very well be correct. That's one I'll have to check out. Thanks for the heads-up!
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Hi Phillip,
I was always under the impression that there is a difference between an auxiliary sailboat and a motor sailer, although I agree with your definition of a motor sailer. I saw an older definition that was something along these lines: The auxiliary sailor sails faster on sails than with the sails and motor. The motor sailer is faster with both sails and motor. Again, it's been a while since I've seen this so I apologize if I am off a little.

Per the Encyclopedia Britannica; "An auxiliary sailboat is basically designed as a sailing craft but is powered with an internal-combustion engine for use in adverse weather conditions and for maneuvering in confined spaces. The motor sailer, by contrast, is designed mainly to operate as a motorboat but is equipped with sail for auxiliary power."
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Old 22-02-2018, 13:00   #223
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

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Operating a boat, car or plane in public space is not a right because it is not in the constitution.
Actually, that is an incorrect interpretation of the U.S. Constitution. The Constitution gives specific powers to the federal government. All remaining powers are reserved for the states or the people.

If it is NOT in the Constitution then the federal government, in theory, does not have a right to regulate it. The key words here are "in theory." While the Tenth Amendment is very clear about this, it is in practice terribly abused and too often ignored. The Interstate Commerce clause is likewise another abused part of the Constitution.

In Article III of the Constitution, does however give the federal government power to regulate maritime law. It should be noted that the regulation is in matters of contract dispute, liability, conflicting titles, etc. Nowhere (at least that I can find) does it discuss limiting or even regulating the permission of one to go sailing. We can see the effect of this today in terms of documentation. Having a vessel documented is for the purpose of establishing clear ownership, as well as ensuring that the documented vessel is entitled to a few other benefits.

To all my Canadian and other non-US friends, I apologize if I went off topic. I hope you found it interesting though.
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Old 22-02-2018, 13:02   #224
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

I beg to differ my brother. There is a right to travel backed up by many supreme court rulings. Technically, under the law and according to Black's Legal Dictionary, a 'driver' is defined as 'for hire'. Current drivers license laws have been challenged and tickets dismissed based on precedent. But the local judges are careful not to let these challenges reach the federal level lest their entire money-making system be overturned. Give 'em and inch...

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Operating a boat, car or plane in public space is not a right because it is not in the constitution. That is why the state is free to compel registration, license, insurance, etc. If you own a private road or lake you can ignore all regulations but private airspace is not an option.
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Old 22-02-2018, 13:06   #225
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Again you are correct, Dave. As an addition to your astute observations and in the spirit of including our non-US membership, Federal Maritime law is largely based on international treaties going back hundreds of years.
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Actually, that is an incorrect interpretation of the U.S. Constitution. The Constitution gives specific powers to the federal government. All remaining powers are reserved for the states or the people.

If it is NOT in the Constitution then the federal government, in theory, does not have a right to regulate it. The key words here are "in theory." While the Tenth Amendment is very clear about this, it is in practice terribly abused and too often ignored. The Interstate Commerce clause is likewise another abused part of the Constitution.

In Article III of the Constitution, does however give the federal government power to regulate maritime law. It should be noted that the regulation is in matters of contract dispute, liability, conflicting titles, etc. Nowhere (at least that I can find) does it discuss limiting or even regulating the permission of one to go sailing. We can see the effect of this today in terms of documentation. Having a vessel documented is for the purpose of establishing clear ownership, as well as ensuring that the documented vessel is entitled to a few other benefits.

To all my Canadian and other non-US friends, I apologize if I went off topic. I hope you found it interesting though.
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