Should I buy a trainer or a cruiser?

[DavidM1600]

Originally Posted by DavidM1600

Hi, I am going to make some comments on this topic based on my experience to date and I am the first to say my experience is very limited. However, that aside, I have been doing a lot of research for my own peace of mind before I make the leap into boat ownership.

The bottom line though that I can garner is that there are a myriad of ways to get into sailing, and learn through experience.

About a year or more ago I came to the realisation I really wanted to learn to sail and with the aim of getting my own boat. Of course I know and have been repeatedly told that buying and owning a boat is or can be an expensive activity. The other key thing is to very much understand that a boat is not an investment. I learnt this lesson from day 1.

So, what have I done. I have talked and talked with many boat owners about boats, key features required and about sailing techniques, technical aspects, insurance, marina/vrs mooring on a buoy etc etc.

The first key piece of advice I learnt from a highly experienced marine surveyor and sailor is (a) do you like the look of the boat, its shape, internal space and what it comes with. (b) can you afford it, and that means not just the purchase price and (c) is it in sound condition or/can you afford to have it fixed up or at least do as much of the work on it yourself, and lastly (d) what type of sailing do you want to do, be it on the lake or in a river, coastal, racing, or even passages (blue water) If you can't answer these key questions in the positive, then don't buy it for you won't get the right boat for you and your family.

Definitely join a club. I joined down here in Tassie, the Cruising yacht club of Tas, as I knew a member of the club (the secretary) and he got me out on his boat on a number of occasions with my partner and since then I have sailed with him on quite a number of occasions. Our club is affiliated with another club that offers a broad range of sailing courses. I had signed up to do the competent crew course but due to some other reasons had to dip out. I think I will probably end up doing it sometime, the other key courses I wish to do are navigation and marine diesel mechanics. Both are important. There are plenty of other relevant courses (eg radio communications, sail planning, etc etc).

In joining the club it has given me access to a range of highly experienced sailors, from whom I am constantly learning from. I have now done one season of twilight racing (which I can highly recommend you doing as you will learn a lot from this, even if your role on board is just a simple one). My role basically has been on the heady winch (on the portside), and even at times just tailing this winch. Plus acting as ballast when tacking and packing up the boat. You will be surprised how much you can learn from this. I have raced on two boats, a Hanse 40 and an older Farr 38. Both boats have been great to sail on.

In terms of cruising, be it day or weekend or even longer sailing, I have managed to get on board with a good friend (now) from my club on his Nauticat 38 Pilot house cutter rigged ketch. The longest trip I have done on this boat was a 2 week cruise up the east coast of Tassie to Bass Straight (Flinders and Deal Island). It was such a great trip and I learnt so much from the skipper and other crew member. I have plans to go cruising again with him early next year for possibly a 3 week trip, let alone many other opportunities with him.

I have read on line, books, I watch a huge range of videos on Youtube, there are many such channels to learn from. I even now have my own sailing youtube channel of my escapades and will continue to post them as I sail and learn more.

I also am constantly looking at boat websites (eg Boatsales.tas but also and which is more relevant for the mainland Aus - Boathub.

My point with this is that over time you will gain sufficient knowledge of the range of boats out there for sale, and all the technical aspects of the different types of boats. From here, then you can refine what key features you want on the boat you wish to purchase. For me it is now quite clear what I want and it will be my first boat, but realistically, it varies from 30 -40 ft. In talking just recently with the skipper of a boat I am soon to go sailing on (my marine surveyor), in his view there is fundamentally little difference between a 34 to 40 ft boat in terms of being able to sail it. My aim is for coastal and blue water cruising on the boat I wish to buy, my main limitation really is the available budget.

From my observations, boats for sale generally remain on the market for quite a long time, so you have negotiation room (its a buyer's market), and there is a pretty good range of 31-35 ft boats for less than $50K, but less so once you go over 36 ft. For me I am not interested in a project boat, I have had two major historic house restorations on my plate and am over going down this road with a boat. Having said that I am well expecting that any boat will require maintenance and this means $$$ and time. You need to allow for this in buying a boat. Jaimie and Liz from Sailing Esper (Youtube) advice keeping about 25% of your boat purchase budget available for maintenance costs. This seems reasonable to me.

In talking with and based on my experience, sure you can learn a lot from sailing a sub 30 ft boat, and many sailors have chosen this route, but I would tend to suggest that this is possibly more relevant to those who learn to sail from childhood upwards. For me, given I am 56 and retired earlier this year, it is not the route I have chosen. My aim is to sail on, learn and look at as many boats as I can before I proceed to buy my boat.

In reading through this topic there were many comments on boat purchase costs (relatively cheaply) available in the US, the situation here in Aus is different. Such cheap boats simply are not available and anything less than $20K will be a problem boat or at best a very small trailor boat.

In talking with brokers and other sailors the same advice is received, you get tired of small boats very quickly. Hence I have no desires to go down this road. Also in buying and selling boats this has costs, brokers fees etc.

So my personal advice would be rather than buying first up work out your answers to the key questions and learn - sail on as many boats you can, take courses, learn the technical stuff and get your family out as well sailing.

There doesn't need to be a rush to buy that first boat.

Thanks Jim, yes I agree, the LOB is just one way of getting into sailing, but you need from my experience to be motivated, make yourself known and ask plenty of questions etc. It is working well for me, but it did take a bit of time to get this happening.

I am fortunate in that the first couple of friends I made in the club I joined understood my desires and have been very kind and helpful to me in making this possible. They have both encouraged and supported me/acted as sailing mentors teaching me the basics, and thankfully my partner also has been supportive. It helps. I really believe, this coming trip I am going on will further significantly improve my sailing skills and experience to the level where I think I more than likely could sail my own boat. Well that is the outcome I am seeking.

That would be excellent to catch up at the WBF or even beforehand and for sure I will look out for you. Would be excellent to talk sailing etc over a cuppa. My email address is osca1600@gmail.com if you wish to contact me off this forum.

Dave

[SofiaB]

Lots of varying advise so I will give none, but I can offer some experience since I was asking the same questions before I purchased my first boat.

I wanted a day sailer which I could trailer. My wife wanted a camper on the water. She had no interest in learning how to sail, but loved the idea of sipping wine and sun bathing while I sailed her around the world.

With such different expectations, we decided on a 33' boat that would allow me to learn and her to lounge. We sailed every moment we could and we loved the boat and learning. I took lessons and she watched and kept up with her friends on Facebook and relaxed.

That was our route when I was 49 years old. I planned on working my way up gradually but at my age, by the time I hit my "goal" of having a 45-50' boat, I would be too old and would have spent too much on upgrading.

We found a boat that met both of our wants. That boat taught us what we wanted in a boat. It showed me that I needed a boat that I could single hand sail but with dock assistance from my wife. I learned to sail in a boat that was forgiving and could handle the quick changing weather and conditions on Lake Erie. It was the minimum weight suggested by many who sail the Great Lakes (10K lbs minimum).

With a list of new wants, after learning from our last boat, we put that list together and went in search of our "dream" boat. My wife's wants were simple: modern, air conditioning, large living space, lots of light. Mine were also simple: easy, single hand sailing, electric winches, electronics, large sails, fast and something that would cut through the 8' waves crashing on the hull every 10', with up to 55 kt winds 15 minutes after 10-15 with insufficient warning to get into a bay or inlet.

If I had started sailing in my 20s, I would have started a very different way. But, I might never had made it. We might have lost interest or not enjoyed the boat.

We absolutely love our 46' boat and it sails just like I imagined, even in the harshest conditions the the Great Lakes has thrown at us.

We hope to circumnavigate the Great Lakes which is approximately 1/2 way around the world in distance. Then, we plan on taking it out and relaxing is calmer waters in the BVI. After relaxing there, perhaps see where it takes us; hopefully to OZ!

Good luck with your decision and with luck you may reach your goal.

[mickt243]

Hi Fursoc - cant help you with what boat to buy, I do power boats.....


BUT

I'm half hour in the opposite direction - port stephens..... I keep my boat at soldiers point marina Soldiers Point Marina - Port Stephens, NSW

its a great yet quiet marina, for a 34 footer, its $1040 a month for a slip, half that for a swing mooring. price changes for size.

the other marinas in port stephens are similar in price.

we bought our boat (as mentioned, a power boat) from Pete at ABC boat brokerage ABC Boat Brokerage - Port Stephens | Port Stephens Boats for Sale who was wonderful to deal with.

[TrentePieds]

Fursoc:

Something that has not yet been mentioned is that you are embarking of four voyages at the same time. These voyages (learning experiences) are discrete - the exist in entirely different "universes" and you will do best if you can eache each one out from the others. They are:

1) Learning to handle a boat effectively and efficiently
2) Learning to live aboard, which is NOTHING like living ashore
3) Learning to be a skipper, a vast topic that reaches far, far beyond the simple matter of boat-handling, a topic that you will be addressing for the rest of your life without exhausting it.
4) learning to be a teacher. This is CRUCIAL if you wife is to learn from you. Unless you are a "born teacher" or unless you have actual teaching experience and you are adept at the GENTLE manipulation of the student's psyche, it is not A GOOD IDEA TO TRY TO TEACH A PARTNER!

[TrentePieds]

Hmm... Popped off before proofreading. So here is the tidy version:

Fursoc:

Something that has not yet been mentioned is that you are embarking of four voyages at the same time. These voyages (learning experiences) are discrete - they exist in entirely different "intellectual universes", and you will do best if you can tease each one out from the others. They are:

1) Learning to handle a boat effectively and efficiently.
2) Learning to live aboard, which is NOTHING like living ashore.
3) Learning to be a skipper, a vast topic that reaches far, far beyond the simple matter of boat-handling, a topic that you will be addressing for the rest of your life without exhausting it.
4) Learning to be a teacher. This is CRUCIAL if your wife is to learn from you. Unless you are a "born teacher", or unless you have actual teaching experience and you are adept at the GENTLE manipulation of the student's psyche, it is NOT a good idea to try to teach your life's partner. The partnership may be put in jeopardy!

In regard to task #1, it really doesn't matter at all what sort of boat you learn on, as long as it is a simple one. My favourite for teaching ab initio was the Cal 20. Nothing more than a "dinghy with a deck". Primitive as boats go, but, boy, it is a good "teaching device". Get something like that and just have at it. When you get to a reasonable level of proficiency, start on item #3.

A Cal 20 can be had here in Vancouver for a thousand bux, sometimes less. It's a good camper, but not a live-aboard kinda vessel. Leave the acquisition of a live-aboard until you've extracted all you can from the "learner".

The acquisition cost of ALL boats is "sunk cost", so don't go near buying a cruiser until you've dealt with #1 and #3. THEN, accepting that the $30K for an elderly cruiser may well be money out the window if it turns out that you (or your wife) can't, or won't, adapt to living aboard, find a cruiser that suits you. Cruisers under 40 feet or so are basically commodities. They are all much of a muchness, except for the fact that there two broad categories: Full-keelers and fin-keelers. They are different beasts, but by the time you've dealt with items #1 and #3, you will know innately where your preference lies, and you can embark of voyage #2.

As for item #4: Dodgy! Tread with caution!

TrentePieds

[JPA Cate]

I can't speak for Trente Pieds, but I have a [formerly] hidden agenda here.

Based on my own experience (I was learning on OPB's (other people's boats) before I met Jim. And I think it was a good thing. I experienced other people's skippering styles, as well, and I think that made it easier for me to learn from him. My agenda is that I want fursoc's wife to enjoy sailing and to become a competent sailor, and I do not think she will if he teaches her. It's not that he may not be able to teach her, but most marital dynamics get messed up by wanting the partner's approval, and objective feedback soon takes a back seat to helping each other feel good. And that is why I agree with Trente Pieds, his #4, teaching the wife, is fraught with relationship peril that ultimately will lead to her not being an equal partner in the venture.

fursoc, where I think you will want to be after you've done Trente Pied's #3, learning to be a skipper, is that for cruising with a family, you want someone at least competent to stand watches alone, handle navigation tasks, as well as make up lines, change sails, etc., in order that you can sleep soundly on your off watch. IMO, a women's sailing program is the most direct way to that goal. It will be an added advantage if she is mechanically inclined.

Ann

[fursoc]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

1) Learning to handle a boat effectively and efficiently.
2) Learning to live aboard, which is NOTHING like living ashore.
3) Learning to be a skipper, a vast topic that reaches far, far beyond the simple matter of boat-handling, a topic that you will be addressing for the rest of your life without exhausting it.
4) Learning to be a teacher. This is CRUCIAL if your wife is to learn from you. Unless you are a "born teacher", or unless you have actual teaching experience and you are adept at the GENTLE manipulation of the student's psyche, it is NOT a good idea to try to teach your life's partner. The partnership may be put in jeopardy!

That is a fantastic breakdown of what needs to be done. Thanks!

[fursoc]

Hi Ann, thanks for your great advice. There is a women's sailing course at the yacht club, so I'll push for that option.

[thomm225]

It's still best to buy a small boat first that doesn't have an engine.

Sail this boat in protected waters for a while until you gain the confidence you can handle it offshore

You can especially learn fast if the boat has tons of sail area as compared to weight. My last 300 lb beach cat had the same sail area as my present boat which is a 6600 lb Bristol 27.

When you pull a "string" on a really light weight boat with tons of sail area the boat reacts immediately telling you how your action affected it

Racing is still the best trainer though because you are constantly tacking, gybing, changing your boat's setup etc and doing comparisons to the other boats around you as you sail/race

Also sometimes as a beginner racer, you may have paid for a regatta and when you arrive the wind is way above what you are used to. This is where you can really learn in a hurry and it's exciting..............

[TrentePieds]

Well, Ann - I don't actually have an "agenda". Other than making the odd comment that noobs may find useful :-)!

You know this already, but "new enties" on CF will not, that MyBeloved was green as green can be when we bought TrentePieds. TP is NOT a boat that I would have bought "for myself". WE bought her, and I bit my tongue, because MyBeloved, being then innocent of all things maritime, just LOVED 'er :-) I pride myself on being able to adapt to any old hooker - uhm... er... tub, and get pleasure from 'er :-)

And the "back-story" is this: When life was rough, and I earned my keep by doing "crooz'n'learns" on a 65 foot Billy Garden designed ketch, I would often have 3 couples - as yet unknown to each other, and indeed to me - in the boat heading outta Vancouver of a Saturday early afternoon. First stop: Keats Island, about four hours distant. Steering and simple sheet handling was the syllabus for that leg. Supper while I held forth on nocturnal navigation and the safety issues that go with that, and on safety issues in general as well as on the conventions of the sea. Not least the reason for giving orders Navy style and the absolutely ineluctable need for responses. Navy style. As I needn't tell you, you need to be careful with that when you deal with civilians :-).

The night time passage across the Salish Sea would engender some confidence in the lubbers, and by the time we were inside the Gulf Islands in the morning, the husbands would start the all too common stunt of getting in the instructor's way. Saying "Don't do that!" just buggers the psychology aboard and NOBODY can learn after that. Subtlety is called for!

So by the time we were approaching Thetis Marina (whose owner was a friend) I would put the littlest woman aboard on the helm, and tell the men off to be the deck party, the most obnoxious man aboard being appointed "captain of the mast". A sure way to humiliate a pushy bugger without his cluing in to who did it to him :-) I would take station in the companionway next to the tiny, female helmsman.

Quietly giving orders to the helm, I'd bring the ship up near the end of the harbour on a beam reach (which we always have there due to topography), tack 'er, drop the canvas and have the deck crew lay a harbour furl on it, just to keep the menfolk busy and outta the way, while on the forereach I slicked 'er up against the hammerhead and lay 'er dead. The helms(wo)man never clued in because the illusion that SHE was "parking" the boat was perfect. The next thing anybody heard from me, LOUDLY, was "Wow, Wendy - you are gonna make QUITE a sailor!"

Wendy's husband never tried to "teach" after that ;-0)!

Now, MyBeloved: part of her psychology is that she can't "be taught". Fundamental, negative reaction to "authority figures". Once a flower child, always a flower child ;-)! So my fake Navy stunt doesn't work with her. Even her clove hitches bugger up if I come on too strong.

So I'd been quietly slipping below to do my chart-work without attempting to teach her at all. Well! She musta been looking over my shoulder, cos, now, when I say "time to take a fix" she sez "I can do that!" And so she can :-)!

TrentePieds

[chuckr]

I can only tell you what worked for us
Until Dec 2000 neither of us had been on a sailboat and as a lark we took sailing lesson together
We liked it and in March 2001 we took 2 more and did a 3 day charter - the instructor was a great guy who made it clear that he would appoint the capt each day or part of a day and really made us work as a team - somedays I was capt and some days patty
We liked it and chartered a couple of times
In 2003 we decided to buy a boat and the issue is much like yours - it really became a financial issue to us as we knew boat prices only increase when you buy and decrease when you sell - so the issue was how much of a hit would we take on sell a boat if we could even sell it and how much more would we pay for a new boat -
Our decision was to buy a new Jeanneau DS40 - We lived in Miami so we were able to sail almost year round and would sail 2-3 weekends a month - we had a couple of really good friends who were incredible sailors who went out with us on a day sail and help us along with hints and techniques
As we look back our decision was the right one as we got a great world class boat and she is taking us on an incredible trip

BUT it is because we work as a team thanks to our instructors and the boat is a first class boat - We have now been full time liveaboards for 9 years and just competed sailing all the way around the Black Sea which is something few ever do - are we good sailors??? NO WE ARE NOT - most of the people on this board can out sail us but we got a great boat and learned how to handle her as we spent a lot of years learning on her before we set out
Good luck with your decision

[Delafontaine]

Hello DavidM1600, with ref. to your posting No 41, I am looking forward reading about your offshore experience on the 1981 aluminium 52 ft Holeman and Pye ketch.
This is a most interesting design, from the well established team Kim Holman, Don Pye and David Cooper which I use to see 40 years ago at West Mersea, UK.
see: The life and designs of Kim Holman - Classic Boat Magazine

[Sea Dreaming]

Hello, loads of great advice. I'll skip the boat question as I just wanted to add to the din about teaching your wife to sail.
I am a woman and new sailor too. My guy has been my instructor and a patient one at that. When I started this seemed like a good idea. But, though we have been out quite a bit I still don't feel competent. Someone mention martial dynamic getting in the way, I agree whole heartedly!

My guy is as equal minded as they come, so this is not a matter of his ego getting in the way and he his a good instructor. But it's this very trust in him that actually undermines my competence. Its too easy to get lazy in my thinking, if I don't feel confident in something I can just let him take over. Inknowingly, he will do just that and I remain blissfully clueless. None of this is concious for either of us. Good intentions but it's not helping me learn and really feel like I know what I am doing. In the end I don't know that I can rely on myself without my cherished hand holder.

[sailormed]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but I did not read all the posts.
What I would do: Go for the big boat and start living on the big boat while still in a marina. Get to know the people in the marina. Invite experienced sailor on the boat with you for your first outings. Go slow first. Maybe take different "instructors" to get another opinion on the way to sail your boat. It is not that difficult to sail. Boat handling is more complicated. I myself went for the big boat immediately, but I knew how to sail dinghies years ago. The boat handling under engine was a steep learning curve. Go slow first. You will learn quick.

[thinwater]

IMHO, you learn to sail on a dinghy or beach cat, you learn systems on a cruising boat.