Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 20-08-2012, 05:53   #1
Registered User
 
micah719's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Somewhere in Germany
Boat: OEM, proportional
Posts: 1,439
Setup and Handling: Traditional Sailing Rigs

A place for the traditionalists (and misers) to muse about how to set up and get the best out of the the sailing rigs of our forebears.

Standing lugs, balanced lugs, dipping lugs, lateens, chinese lugs, spritsails, crab claw rigs, gunter rigs, gaff rigs, square rigs etc. All with their histories and compromises

Primary purpose is to dig up information that is becoming scarce, and hopefuly avoid painful learning by experience what so many have already learned long ago. Also, to help folks get sailing that would otherwise be prevented by a sailing culture driven mainly by marketing and racing and money. And finally, to examine the peculiarities of the old rigs and play to their strengths.

My personal interests are the junk rig and the dipping lug. I am designing a 46' steel schooner for the junk rig, and I am preparing to construct a Caldonia Yawl of Ian Oughtred's design with dipping lug.

The dipping lug is interesting to me because it avoids the "bad tack" and apparently dangerous gybe behaviour of the balanced lug, and it is the best way to getting closest to bermudan permormance upwind and retaining better performance downwind, out of a simple cheap unstayed rig without all the high tech expensive fittings.

The Beer lugger method is of particular interest. They tack by hauling the sail and yard around the front of the mast, using a continuous sheet. The advantage of this is fast tacks as the yard is not lowered, so less to mess about with as a singlehander. The tack is attached to a short downward curving bowsprit which increases the sail area and brings the luff so far forward there is no need for a jib, and hence no need for a backstay. The yard and luff are at such an obtuse angle it almost looks like a lateen sail and presents a long leading edge to the clean airflow ahead of the mast. There is no boom and the sail does not pass across the deck at all.

An alternative is to use the lateen method I saw in a video of racing luggers in the Canaries. There, the tack purchase is attached to a lanya rdpassed around behind the mast, the yard and luff dipping down on their way around the mast. The problem I see in this is that it would be difficult for a singlehander to manage sheet, helm and tack-purchase. Another problem I expect is how to handle a gybe on the lateen rig; once the stern comes across the wind, the sail would be pressed hard against the mast. This is where I am having trouble finding information.


I suppose one could use both the Beer and lateen-racer methods depending on situation, the setup can handle both. One could even sail the dipping lug on a bad tack at times where passing yard and sail around would be too dangerous and distracting.

One last area of curiosity for me is the reefing of the dipping lug. I suppose one luffs up and simply shifts the clew and tack-purchase up to the next grommet and ties the unused area of sail out of the way with reef points.

Advice? Experience? Observations? Opinions? Comments? Derision? All welcome. I'll add photos and vids once I reset my lagging computer. Anyone with other rigs in mind, let's hear about them!
__________________

__________________
Ps 139:9-10 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
micah719 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 07:30   #2
Senior Cruiser
 
Blue Stocking's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: St. Georges, Bda
Boat: Rhodes Reliant 41ft
Posts: 4,117
Re: Setup and handling: traditional sailing rigs

If you don't already have it, see if you can find a copy of Jon Leather's "Gaff Rig".
A goldmine.
__________________

__________________
so many projects--so little time !!
Blue Stocking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 07:42   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 153
Re: Setup and handling: traditional sailing rigs

Also "Hand, Reef, and Steer" is mostly about the gaff rig. Don't remember the author, but you'll find it on Amazon. Also, "The Rigger's Apprentice". All good.
__________________
SailPenelope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 08:42   #4
Registered User
 
micah719's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Somewhere in Germany
Boat: OEM, proportional
Posts: 1,439
Re: Setup and handling: traditional sailing rigs

Having some computer crashes and stuttering video. If anyone sees a gybe, pls let me know!

Tacking a dipping lusgsail, Beer style:


Typical dipping lug tacking, abaft the mast:


UK to Aussie on a lugger:


A lugger regatta:


Cornish luggers:


Canarian lateens:



A croatian lateen, though no sail handling visible:



Some stills of croatian lateens, nice looking boats, very similar to the Cal Yawl:



More croatian lateens

Croatian lateens sailing, but this time they're accepting bad tacks with the sail against the mast...and still no gybes. Must be a secret maneuver......:

__________________
Ps 139:9-10 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
micah719 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 08:51   #5
Registered User
 
bruce smith's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: puget sound/ caribbean
Boat: never wrecked a boat while awake or sober
Posts: 330
Re: Setup and handling: traditional sailing rigs

These rigs so far are fishing boats , which needed to be fast , that are racing , with large crews. Not what one will be doing with a CY.
One will lose hardly any performance by having a bit of sail leaning on a spar. The old timers would have done that to prevent chafe,(cotton /flax sails) not a minuscule bump in performance.
__________________
bruce smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 09:02   #6
Registered User
 
micah719's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Somewhere in Germany
Boat: OEM, proportional
Posts: 1,439
Re: Setup and handling: traditional sailing rigs

So it's only do-able with large crew? Pity, was hoping to get it to work singlehanded, hence the fascination with the Beer tacking technique.
__________________
Ps 139:9-10 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
micah719 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 09:24   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 7,963
Re: Setup and handling: traditional sailing rigs

Working on the design criteria for my next boat, which will almost certainly be a custom built multihull. Going for a "traditional" cat if you will. Definitely will not have the typical modern mainsail driven sloop rig. James Wharram has some interesting sail plan designs. Much more practical for cruising use than typical current multihull sail plans. Especially in the larger boats in his line like the Pahi.

Also, I used to crew aboard the ELISSA, a barque rigged ship built in 1877. I wrote an article about tacking the ELISSA here: A Piece of Sailing History - The Story of Tall Ship Elissa
__________________
belizesailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 09:33   #8
Registered User
 
micah719's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Somewhere in Germany
Boat: OEM, proportional
Posts: 1,439
Re: Setup and handling: traditional sailing rigs

Nice ship...bet it was a blast! Looking up James Wharram now....
__________________
Ps 139:9-10 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
micah719 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 09:51   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 7,963
Re: Setup and handling: traditional sailing rigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by micah719 View Post
Nice ship...bet it was a blast! Looking up James Wharram now....
Yes, my time aboard the ELISSA was a very memorable life experience and exposed me to an entirely new-to-me large domain of sailing knowledge. Also, a whole different sailing sub-culture of traditional sailors. Many of whom have little or no experience on modern sailing vessels and often don't care to.

The Wharram desigs are very much in keeping with your original post in terms of "traditional" sail plans and "miserly". Originally they were all home-built, but now have some of the larger designs available as pro-built. In a sense, his Polynesian based designs are more "traditional" than Western "traditional" sailing vessels -- possibly pre-dating them by thousands of years.
__________________
belizesailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 09:58   #10
Registered User
 
micah719's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Somewhere in Germany
Boat: OEM, proportional
Posts: 1,439
Re: Setup and handling: traditional sailing rigs

Thanks for putting me onto the Wharram designs....the wingsail looks interesting indeed, will be looking closer at it. Those cat hulls look nice too.

Tiki Wingsail Rig | James Wharram Designs

Quote:
Also, a whole different sailing sub-culture of traditional sailors. Many of whom have little or no experience on modern sailing vessels and often don't care to.
That gets my sea-jiblets tingling. Must see about the possibility of crewing on a square rigger....
__________________
Ps 139:9-10 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
micah719 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 10:15   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Montegut LA.
Boat: Now we need to get her to Louisiana !! she's ours
Posts: 3,421
Re: Setup and handling: traditional sailing rigs

micah, Connie and I sailed a Colvin 42 ftr with Chinese style junk sails fo a lot of years ! they are simple and with some experince can be as fast or sometimes faster then more modern style sail types!! the combined ease of reefing and shapeing the sails for both speed and safety make them a good choice for a cruiseing boat! just our 2 cents !
__________________
Bob and Connie
bobconnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 10:40   #12
Registered User
 
micah719's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Somewhere in Germany
Boat: OEM, proportional
Posts: 1,439
Re: Setup and handling: traditional sailing rigs

The junk rig for the main boat is shaping up to be unbeatable, for my requirements.

I've been looking at the wingsail idea and it has its drawbacks. One major difference to the junk is that the wingsail cleans up the mast turbulence, but at the expense of chafe and some handling problems.

One thing still uncertain in my mind is the mast height for the junk rig. I'm keen on the idea of having them a little higher rather than shorter...the wind is stronger higher up, and in light airs I could hoist them all the way up so that the boom has standing headroom under it. In a blow, the whole lot comes down and shorter. At 14m/46' LOD, is a pair of 18 masts realistic?

Bruce: Thanks for the words of wisdom. The dipping lug on the CY is still stuck in my head, though. Ok, the CY is lightly built but I was planning on building her a little stronger than specs, within reason. I realise I might be jumping into too-deep water by going for a rig that is known to be tricky...but I'm willing to give it a shot because it will be on very sheltered waters, and I can rerig it to balanced lug, or junk-rig, if the dipper is too hard. Probably junk rig if I can get her bottom in saltwater. Assuming the boat and I survive the dipper, that is....

Bob & Connie: How much of a difference did the stays and jib make on the Gazelle?
__________________
Ps 139:9-10 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
micah719 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 11:03   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 7,963
Re: Setup and handling: traditional sailing rigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by micah719 View Post
Thanks for putting me onto the Wharram designs....the wingsail looks interesting indeed, will be looking closer at it. Those cat hulls look nice too.

Tiki Wingsail Rig | James Wharram Designs



That gets my sea-jiblets tingling. Must see about the possibility of crewing on a square rigger....
Yes, I really like some of Wharrams designs too. Definitely better sail plan options than most modern cats (IMHO). And, better hull shape than most too.

If you can find an opportunity to do some square rigger sailing, I highly recommend it. The ELISSA was a huge commitment of time (160 hours of volunteer maintenance work & training minimum to even be eligible for crew selection), but was well worth it.
__________________
belizesailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 13:39   #14
Registered User
 
TeddyDiver's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arctic Ocean
Boat: Under construction 35' ketch
Posts: 1,828
Images: 2
Re: Setup and handling: traditional sailing rigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailPenelope View Post
Also "Hand, Reef, and Steer" is mostly about the gaff rig. Don't remember the author. Also, "The Rigger's Apprentice".
Tom Cunliffe, Ed Marinaro..
__________________
TeddyDiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-08-2012, 16:09   #15
Registered User
 
micah719's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Somewhere in Germany
Boat: OEM, proportional
Posts: 1,439
Re: Setup and handling: traditional sailing rigs

A little bit of British sailing history....and some nice lines for someone to build. Go on, I dare ya...

Maria: The Last Norfolk Broads Lateener | Classic Boat Magazine

__________________

__________________
Ps 139:9-10 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
micah719 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
sailing

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:31.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.