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View Poll Results: have you taken a formal self defense training class
yes I have taken training 45 65.22%
no I have no formal training 12 17.39%
I think I look into/take a class 2 2.90%
I don't think it is needed and aren't planning to take one 12 17.39%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 14-10-2013, 15:20   #1
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self defense - are you trained

There are the current threads about the recent attacks, and of course there are guns threads. But how many have actually taken a class or gotten formal training in self-defense? This just seems to be something worth doing and I have toyed with my wife and I taking classes.

I'm not in the scared of strange places crowd, but I think I'm going to move this item up on my priorities to do list during a winter off season.

PS - and I don't mean a gun handling class even though I bet more Americans have taken one of those than a formal close quarter hand-to-hand defense class.
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Old 14-10-2013, 16:08   #2
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Re: self defense - are you trained

A long time ago in a galaxy far far away, I studied kempo, for quite a while. Nowadays I would be lucky to not trip and fall . Though I do have a ninja attack cat.....
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Old 14-10-2013, 16:34   #3
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I have had years of Jujitsu training. It matters what style you train in what dojo and what instructors you have. Whenever I moved it took a while to find another suitable combination for my needs as not all Dojo's are created equal.

I was fortunate to always find one that instilled the theory and combat training I was looking for. Ill also say although a one of class or workshop may be better than nothing depending on the student (it could get you killed to), you really need ongoing training until it is like walking.

Also within the training places I trained at there would often be nobody sparring as I needed and would have to recruit the eager and build up to it. This would be less of an issue at some MMA training places that are purposely training for full contact competition.

But I always found that the jujitsu places I trained at trained for actual combat in real life scenarios.
The basic principles were;
Early recognition of a threat
Separate yourself from potential threat
Recognize potential weapons and arm yourself if not already done and if possible. This can be a pen or anything
Diffuse the threat
Look compliant but not a a target.
If combat is imminent and there are no other options attack first
It would go something like

If at Maximum hand to hand combat distance Very loud Ki (distracts and startles ) and foot strike to femoral artery or bladder, step in strike/ grabbing enemy hard (whenever you contact you should inflict pain) and throat strike or occipital strike, facial tear down which is a technique used to manipulate the head that brings your enemy to the ground and usually transitions into an arm lock ( never leaving your opponent without controlling him hands are always on him ) you could now break his arm, ribs and concuss his head. Move off the top of his head and prepare for your next attacker as they are usually not alone.
All this or other variations must be executed very quickly to the point your attacker is still shocked from your initial Ki and happens so fast he cannot orient himself. That whole scenario should take about 3 seconds.

Now this is only a hypothetical simple attack but as laid out if you decide you will engage in combat you better make sure you can inflict enough damage he will not get back up. This is also a non armed assailant disarming a machete wielding opponent ads new dimension. But knowing how to if the opportunity presents itself can change the game.

Now back to training to be able to do this effectively you must be able to train at full speed and there will be lots of pain involved. Joint manipulation needs to be taken to the threshold as do chokes and locks. You would be surprised that students not used to being choked instantly tap out, but once trained to go to threshold over and over soon if your choke technique is not correct your opponent can defeat it.

So part of the training is stamina, fighting takes a tremendous amount of energy and you must be able to sustain until its over. Proper training also
Conditions your pain threshold.

So its my beliefs that its good to train. But it's very involved (I have now stopped training and recognize my limitations) I would also say avoid styles that are to much fluff too many fancy kicks or take lifetimes to master.

Pick something that will work Thai kickboxing where you actually get in the ring is simple and effective but lacks locks and holds. I'm a big fan of joint manipulation simple effective targeted strikes holds grappling etc. Most fights will end up on the ground so train for it.

There's a lot of good MMA training places but I've not followed it enough lately. It seems though there are a lot more rules in the cage matches. When there wasn't Jujitsu was king. It may not have been as entertaining to watch but it was effective. I could be wrong with the MMA and rules. At any rate if they train to the point that it would be easy to convert that training to lethal or crippling then you are good. I would avoid any training that does not teach you how to finish an opponent so he will not get back up. Not necessarily killing your enemy but damaging enough he cannot attack you again.

One other thing if you do that in a poor country to a person that has a family a you should maybe hope he dies because if he doesn't it puts a huge burden on his family (ie can't work and $$$$ in medical bills and support) some disgruntled members may try and hunt you down. Depending where you are there is sometimes not much value on life but having been left with huge costs can make revenge and hatred build) at either rate I'd be making myself scarce as soon as it was properly dealt with.

Then again I could be a complete nut job in fact my wife would likely agree.
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Old 14-10-2013, 16:49   #4
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Re: self defense - are you trained

I'm not sure most of the "belt" type classes are of use far as real self defense. My daughter has a brown belt and I don't think if she was confronted on the street she would be good to protect herself because her attacker wouldn't be following the "rules".

To me self defense means putting your attacker down so you can get away! Not so they can make another attack at you.
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Old 14-10-2013, 17:08   #5
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Re: self defense - are you trained

I have military training, so I suppose that would count or at least help out in a bar room brawl.
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Old 14-10-2013, 17:14   #6
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Brazilian Jiu-jitsu is designed for close quarters defence and particularly well suited for defending against someone stronger or larger than yourself. I trained with women and they became very effective fighters quickly because of this advantage.

Additionally some of the street techniques involve rapid disarming of weapons (yes both knives and guns) and defending against attacks from behind, which are typical of mugging and robbery situations.

Kickboxing is useless in the typical yacht cockpit or cabin area where space and flat area for a spread stance is minimal. Stand in your cockpit and try an effective roundhouse kick...

I'm no expert, but learned Machado BJJ for some time and was most impressed by Jean Jacques Machado, whom only born with one hand, became a most formidable and champion fighter. He is small in stature and fights one handed, you could not pay me to try and fight him.

The thing that he taught me; and the core philosophy of Jiu-jitsu, is to use your disadvantage as an advantage against an opponent.
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Old 14-10-2013, 17:21   #7
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Re: self defense - are you trained

I am inclined to think that unless your background includes down in the gutter street fighting, the decision for "fight or flight" would be an easy one. A few classes in judo, karate or whatever just won't cut it.
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Old 14-10-2013, 17:29   #8
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Re: self defense - are you trained

In the late 70's/early 80's I did a lot of martial arts training.

2nd degree black belt in Taekwondo (for kicking techniques)
1st degree black belt in Japanese Jiu Jitsu (for holds and grappling techniques)
Training in Wing Chun Kung Fu (for hand techniques)
Ninjutsu training (under Stephen Hayes)
Iaido (Samurai Sword Fighting)
Ninja weapons and improvised weapons training

Then, I worked as part of a mercenary group, and taught hand-to-hand combat and knife fighting.
(I also got to help out with sniper training and IED manufacturing.)
(That job helped pay for my Ph.D.)

Then, I grew up and played the responsible adult...
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Old 14-10-2013, 18:00   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgallinger View Post
I am inclined to think that unless your background includes down in the gutter street fighting, the decision for "fight or flight" would be an easy one. A few classes in judo, karate or whatever just won't cut it.
This.
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Old 14-10-2013, 21:49   #10
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Re: self defense - are you trained

As a merchant mariner I have traveled many empty streets and dark alleys around the world, and have encountered troubles.

In real life, attackers know the terrain, have a plan, work together, and have you outnumbered. Experience has shown them your probable next move. They don't line up and come one at a time like in a karate movie. They come from all sides, cutting weapons ready to cut, four or more at a time.

You want to fight? Go ahead, be a hero. Me, I can say "take it" in several languages, as I raise my hands, shielding my eyes. Nothing in my pockets is worth losing an eye.

The machete is a common and wicked weapon, especially in the hands of a fellow who swings it for a living, or several such fellows. Machetes make fingers or hands go flying, and open pumping blood wounds.

My prep began when I built my hiding places for valuables, and left my good stuff hidden before going ashore. If you want to train, learn to spot trouble BEFORE a confrontation is begun. Learn enough language to get local advice. Learn to RUN when the little red light in your head starts flashing. When your hackles start rising, make your feet start moving. Don't wait or ask for proof or reasons.

Foreign governments take it poorly when you shoot their citizens, regardless of cause. They complicate your life, and eyeball your billfold. They covet your firearms.

I am a dead on shot, was a golden gloves boxer, and a saloon bouncer. Uncle Sam gave me instruction. I know what to do. But I do not fight. I avoid, I run, I abandon the contents of my pockets. Not fun!

But I am 70 years old, and have all my parts functioning.
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Old 14-10-2013, 21:56   #11
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Originally Posted by Bestathook View Post
As a merchant mariner I have traveled many empty streets and dark alleys around the world, and have encountered troubles.

In real life, attackers know the terrain, have a plan, work together, and have you outnumbered. Experience has shown them your probable next move. They don't line up and come one at a time like in a karate movie. They come from all sides, cutting weapons ready to cut, four or more at a time.

You want to fight? Go ahead, be a hero. Me, I can say "take it" in several languages, as I raise my hands, shielding my eyes. Nothing in my pockets is worth losing an eye.

The machete is a common and wicked weapon, especially in the hands of a fellow who swings it for a living, or several such fellows. Machetes make fingers or hands go flying, and open pumping blood wounds.

My prep began when I built my hiding places for valuables, and left my good stuff hidden before going ashore. If you want to train, learn to spot trouble BEFORE a confrontation is begun. Learn enough language to get local advice. Learn to RUN when the little red light in your head starts flashing. When your hackles start rising, make your feet start moving. Don't wait or ask for proof or reasons.

Foreign governments take it poorly when you shoot their citizens, regardless of cause. They complicate your life, and eyeball your billfold. They covet your firearms.

I am a dead on shot, was a golden gloves boxer, and a saloon bouncer. Uncle Sam gave me instruction. I know what to do. But I do not fight. I avoid, I run, I abandon the contents of my pockets. Not fun!

But I am 70 years old, and have all my parts functioning.
I agree entirely , defense is a very foolish posture in most cases. If one evaluates you are in true mortal danger , then attack first with everything you got. However most confrontations are escalated often by foolish bravado, resulting in injury or death, possessions are not worth injury over.

Dave
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Old 14-10-2013, 21:56   #12
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Ive done a lot of martial arts training in the past, many decades ago, would probably hurt myself more than my assailant now.

IMHO, one time self defense training may do nothing more than create a false sense of security because brief training will not result in the techniques becoming an automatic reflex. In a tense situation people revert to what is natural habit for them. If screaming and flayling is what you've done all your life, and you take one self defense class...guess what you're going to do when the presssure is on. Drilled in training just becomes an automatic reaction...whether it is self defense or fire fighting. Its an interesting experience when it happens...like being on autopilot...the training just kicks in. A class or two won't get you to this point.

And as bestathook points out, avoidance is the best strategy anyway. Real life brawls dont work out like the choregraphed ones on screen.
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Old 14-10-2013, 22:17   #13
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Re: self defense - are you trained

The probelm with most martial artists is that their training is not real - when they get into a street situation for real - they **** their pants.

You need to get into alot of fights to become very good at fighting - the key to winning is making your reflexes so well honed that they are instinctive.
You don't necessarily need a multitiude of tecnhinques - but a handful that are practised to absolute perfection.

Knfes should be avoided at all cost - they are lethal.

Pepper spray may be your best weapon followed by being fast on your heels. Avoid bad areas - if you find yourself in a bad area get out - meanwhile look confident and strong - even a little aggressive.

Best to not be in the wrong place to start with. Forget last minute self defence classes.
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Old 14-10-2013, 22:33   #14
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Re: self defense - are you trained

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoomBrake View Post
Brazilian Jiu-jitsu is designed for close quarters defence and particularly well suited for defending against someone stronger or larger than yourself. I trained with women and they became very effective fighters quickly because of this advantage.

Additionally some of the street techniques involve rapid disarming of weapons (yes both knives and guns) and defending against attacks from behind, which are typical of mugging and robbery situations.

Kickboxing is useless in the typical yacht cockpit or cabin area where space and flat area for a spread stance is minimal. Stand in your cockpit and try an effective roundhouse kick...

I'm no expert, but learned Machado BJJ for some time and was most impressed by Jean Jacques Machado, whom only born with one hand, became a most formidable and champion fighter. He is small in stature and fights one handed, you could not pay me to try and fight him.

The thing that he taught me; and the core philosophy of Jiu-jitsu, is to use your disadvantage as an advantage against an opponent.




BJJ is indeed an excellent choice for all around self defense training (Gracie Barra Seattle myself- Gracie Barra Seattle Martial Arts School - Jiu-Jitsu for everyone - Master Carlos Gracie Jr. - Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu ). But for most older cruisers looking to learn practical and effective methods of self defense without dedicating serious amounts of time, Krav Maga is very hard to beat. Difficult to find courses though. Imi Lichtenfeld was a genius. Krav Maga was developed specifically as a method of defense in life or death situations, often with multiple assailants. It is one of the very few martial arts based on pure practicality. Imi developed it and taught it to his fellow Jews in the ghetto during the Nazi occupation of Europe to help them fight for their lives against gangs of Nazi youths.




It is has been steadily developed ever since, and is taught to every Israeli citizen as part of their military service. It includes the use of improvised weapons, knives, batons, rifle w/bayonet, etc. etc. If you want to learn how to defend yourself, you really can't go wrong finding a reputable Krav Maga trainer.
Of course, as with any martial art, training is everything. A more practical martial art like BJJ, Aikido with Ki, or Krav Maga can't make up for that. But good training can make the most harmless looking person a dangerous opponent.




Krav Maga - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Krav Maga Worldwide









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Old 14-10-2013, 22:34   #15
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Re: self defense - are you trained

Looking back historically, most 'combative' arts started with weapons - only the unarmed populace had to fight without them.
Learn to use your mind (awareness) as your primary means, avoiding the dodgy areas and situations as best you can. Then use tools if things go bad (pepper sprays, clubs, etc.). Bare handed is last resort. It looks great on the screen, but in real life - not so much.
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