Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 29-12-2010, 08:13   #61
Commercial Member
 
Mark Johnson's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: New Bern NC
Boat: Searunner 34 Trimaran
Posts: 1,565
Sneuman,

The problem with this form of communication is its limitations... It is so easy to be misunderstood.

You don't know the person. You are not face to face. Some folks have not gone to the beginning. And more often than not, ones response is to one particular person or point, and others may not know this.

I was using a definition of (2X the wave train), because I thought that this was agreed on as "a definition" from the get go. Perhaps I was wrong. I have read this as being a definition of Rogue wave, but I have also seen them described differently. If there is now a "definitive definition" that is universally agreed upon for this word, I am not aware of what it is.

I think that waves of unremarkable size that are 2X the wave train happen all the time. I wouldn't be surprised if it is several times a day!

It appears that waves of SEVERAL times the wave train, and dangerous when unseen and unprepared, are more regular than one would think. I said before that I didn't think that my "breaking wave" near disaster fits the definition.

I also have no doubt that truly HUGE towering waves, much worse than the average conditions at the time, do exist. I have no idea how one would quantify the frequency with accuracy. I'd say... rarely that it both happens AND hits someone, but it certainly does occasionally happen!

My little 34' tri is as small a multihull as I would want to go to sea in, and I hope to avoid such a wave at all cost. Other than sailing smart, reefing when called for, watching the weather, and being willing to turn and run when really bad weather is coming, I don't give Rogue waves a lot of thought.

For me... it's: KEEP A GOOD WATCH. Don't hit a ship, container, log, or the bottom.

Don't fall off of the boat.

Don't get my ass whipped by the weather. (do what is necessary to assure this).

Avoid all of the things that lead to sea sickness...

And, put more energy into avoiding hurricanes, or seek better shelter. (I've been through about a dozen, but none at sea). In one storm, on the border between a Cat 3 and 4, I was swimming out to my boat numerous times to adjust lines, in 150 MPH gusts. I want to stop doing this!

The list goes on... but these are at the top.

These I can do something about. Rogue waves may be in the distant parts of my mind, but they are not on my "list" at all.

Mark
__________________

__________________
Mark Johnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2010, 08:15   #62
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: The Jon boat still, plus a 2007 SeaCat.
Posts: 6,894
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
Good points, but again I think it depends on your definition. If a "rogue" wave is only twice the size of the mean of the train, that shouldn't be uncommon at all.

http://www.mxak.org/weather/waves.pdf

If you received a marine weather forecast predicting “SEAS 10 FT” in the coastal or offshore waters, what is really being conveyed in that forecast?
• Hs = 10 ft
• H (mean) = 0.64 times Hs = 6.4 ft
• H (most probable) (slightly less that H mean) = 6 ft
• H1/10 (10% highest waves) = 1.27 times Hs = 12.7 ft
• H1/100 (1% highest waves) = 1.67 times Hs = 16.7 ft

• Hmax (highest wave you should be on the alert for) = approximately 2 times Hs = 20 ft!

But I'm not sure that's the correct definition of "rogue"

I'm not too good at the math but if I was out sailing around and the seas were 6' and sometimes 10 and "all of a sudden" a 20'r came along then I would be talking about a rogue wave to all that would listen.

And a few days later it would be 25, then 30, then...........
__________________

__________________
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2010, 10:31   #63
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,596
Images: 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot9898 View Post
There was a cruise ship several years ago off the eastern US coast that took a rogue wave which damaged the upper decks ...
The “Norwegian Dawn” isn’t the only cruise ship to have suffered a “rogue” wave
Huge wave turns cruise holiday into horror - U.S. news - msnbc.com
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2010, 11:55   #64
Senior Cruiser
 
tartansail's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Tiverton, RI, USA
Boat: ex-Tartan 40
Posts: 614
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pauls View Post
Alright. I've seen a freak wave, and had the good fortune to survive it. I'll tell you about it.
. . .

This wave was unlike anything I've seen at sea. It looked like a wave coming up on a beach that has formed up and will soon break. The face of the wave was extremely steep, and the wave height was at least triple the other seas. When we were 3 waves away from it I turned dead into it, and throttled all the way back. It was unthinkable to take this wave in any other fashion. Mike ran down into the cabin, yelling at the rest of the crew to hold on.
. . .

Note, if I'd been outside in an open cockpit I'd not be here writing this.

Paul
I'm just now reading this thread. Paul, an amazing experience. Thank goodness you're here to tell of it. One question -- there is mention that sailboats need to turn down the face of large waves since they lack the power to climb the face. It sounds like you throttled back rather than increasing your power to get up the face. If the right decision was to reduce power (and your survival suggests it was) does that mean that a sailboat may be better served trying to power up the face?
__________________
- David
S/V Sapphire Tartan 40 #71

tartansail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2010, 12:52   #65
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Custom cutter, 42'
Posts: 379
Hi David,

I'm a little hesitant to dictate how someone should deal with one of these things. Situations vary, and I'm not confident that I can sit here and tell the best way to deal with something happening an ocean away. It's been my experience that the best thing to do is usually apparent when something's happening, and it isn't always what I'd previously imagined would be best.

That said, my feeling is that when confronted with a wave that is both very high and - most importantly - with an abnormally steep face, unless you have a boat fast enough to run away from the thing you are going to have to face it. You are going to end up on the far side of it, one way or the other. You'll either go over the top or be smashed down and run over. Smashed down has variations - going up the face and being flipped backwards, going up the face, failing to make the top and sliding back down, or having it break and just roll over you, as happened to me. (I was fortunate, sincere thanks to my guardian angel).

If you can make it over the top then that is obviously best. If you can't, then I hope that you have a really strong boat and that you are inside with hatches closed.

I believe that a strong, well sealed boat that is self righting will survive this. She needs to be strong enough to take the impact and water pressure. Hatches need to be strongly secured, etc. You'd almost certainly loose your rig, but if the boat can handle the impact and right herself afterwards you ought to be OK.

If you're a multi-huller, you'll probably be upside down but if the boat is strong it'll still be afloat.

I really wouldn't want to be outside when facing one of these things. Inside the boat is much safer.

Regards,

Paul
__________________
Pauls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2010, 13:20   #66
Registered User
 
PamlicoTraveler's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Depends
Boat: SB 43' Cutter
Posts: 679
Images: 13
If you are down below with the cabin sealed you won't really be in a position to make a decision about climbing it or not. It's hard to imagine you would have time to make the decision and then get down below in a secure cabin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pauls
If you can make it over the top then that is obviously best. If you can't, then I hope that you have a really strong boat and that you are inside with hatches closed.

__________________
PamlicoTraveler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2010, 14:18   #67
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Custom cutter, 42'
Posts: 379
If you have a wheelhouse then yes, you will be able to do something about it while down below. If you read my post, I was able to see this wave from quite a distance and thus had time. At night there would be little or no warning.

Paul
__________________
Pauls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2010, 15:05   #68
Senior Cruiser
 
tartansail's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Tiverton, RI, USA
Boat: ex-Tartan 40
Posts: 614
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pauls View Post
Hi David,

I'm a little hesitant to dictate how someone should deal with one of these things. Situations vary, and I'm not confident that I can sit here and tell the best way to deal with something happening an ocean away. It's been my experience that the best thing to do is usually apparent when something's happening, and it isn't always what I'd previously imagined would be best.

That said, my feeling is that when confronted with a wave that is both very high and - most importantly - with an abnormally steep face, unless you have a boat fast enough to run away from the thing you are going to have to face it. You are going to end up on the far side of it, one way or the other. You'll either go over the top or be smashed down and run over. Smashed down has variations - going up the face and being flipped backwards, going up the face, failing to make the top and sliding back down, or having it break and just roll over you, as happened to me. (I was fortunate, sincere thanks to my guardian angel).

If you can make it over the top then that is obviously best. If you can't, then I hope that you have a really strong boat and that you are inside with hatches closed.

I believe that a strong, well sealed boat that is self righting will survive this. She needs to be strong enough to take the impact and water pressure. Hatches need to be strongly secured, etc. You'd almost certainly loose your rig, but if the boat can handle the impact and right herself afterwards you ought to be OK.

If you're a multi-huller, you'll probably be upside down but if the boat is strong it'll still be afloat.

I really wouldn't want to be outside when facing one of these things. Inside the boat is much safer.

Regards,

Paul
Hi Paul,
I appreciate the response. I guess I was mostly intrigued that, rather than give the boat full throttle to try to climb the face or push through the white water, you throttled back which I would have thought would have put you at greater risk. Since lack of power is part of the rationale given for a sailboat turning down the wave rather than trying to punch through, I was trying to understand your thinking.

I totally agree that it would be better to be inside a pilothouse if faced with the situation you describe. Frankly, my preference would be to ask for a mulligan and start over.
__________________
- David
S/V Sapphire Tartan 40 #71

tartansail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2010, 23:43   #69
Registered User
 
markpierce's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Central California
Boat: M/V Carquinez Coot
Posts: 3,416
The voyage is finally strarting to get interesting!



(Nov. 11, 2010, about 1000 miles ESE of New York, from deck 6.5.)

This is why I'd prefer to take a trans-oceanic cruise on a nearly 1000-foot, nearly 100-thousand-ton cruise ship than a boat. Besides, it's much cheaper and the food is great. Hey! and no duty time.
__________________
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2010, 23:51   #70
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Custom cutter, 42'
Posts: 379
Hi David,

I understand your question. This wave wasn't like the one they mocked up for the movie "Perfect Storm", where the wave was so high the boat coudn't make it to the top and slid backwards down the face. The face of this wave was so steep that it did not look climbable. I honestly didn't think about what to do to make it over the top. It was a wall of near vertical water moving across the ocean, and I didn't want to collide with it with any more speed than I had to. It was that steep.

In my opinion the worst thing you could do with a wave like this would be to run from it, ie head down the wave. As I see it, the wave is an energy delivery system. The longer your boat is exposed to it, the more energy it can impart to it. I think minimizing your exposure time will minimize what it can do to you.

Regards,

Paul
__________________
Pauls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2010, 00:01   #71
Registered User
 
markpierce's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Central California
Boat: M/V Carquinez Coot
Posts: 3,416
Quote:
Originally Posted by troppo View Post
... most importantly, what was on the menu?
It was the same, repetitive breakfast menu. I can almost recite it since I've read it for some 45 or more breakfasts, but don't want to bore you. That morning I had coffee, mixed fruit, a bowl of cereal, tomato juice, and bacon (or was it sausage?). Anyway, the remaining milk in the cereal bowl slid onto my lap, and the untouched pastries and various silverware fell directly onto the floor. (You expected me to hold everything down?)
__________________
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2010, 04:21   #72
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Rockhampton, Australia
Boat: No boat, looking again.
Posts: 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
It was the same, repetitive breakfast menu. I can almost recite it since I've read it for some 45 or more breakfasts, but don't want to bore you. That morning I had coffee, mixed fruit, a bowl of cereal, tomato juice, and bacon (or was it sausage?). Anyway, the remaining milk in the cereal bowl slid onto my lap, and the untouched pastries and various silverware fell directly onto the floor. (You expected me to hold everything down?)
Sheesh, interesting viewpoint to watch a big wave from.

Breakfast sounds yummy, especially the pastries.
__________________
troppo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2010, 04:27   #73
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Rockhampton, Australia
Boat: No boat, looking again.
Posts: 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pauls View Post
Hi David,

I understand your question. This wave wasn't like the one they mocked up for the movie "Perfect Storm", where the wave was so high the boat coudn't make it to the top and slid backwards down the face. The face of this wave was so steep that it did not look climbable. I honestly didn't think about what to do to make it over the top. It was a wall of near vertical water moving across the ocean, and I didn't want to collide with it with any more speed than I had to. It was that steep.

In my opinion the worst thing you could do with a wave like this would be to run from it, ie head down the wave. As I see it, the wave is an energy delivery system. The longer your boat is exposed to it, the more energy it can impart to it. I think minimizing your exposure time will minimize what it can do to you.

Regards,

Paul
I can picture why you wouldn't want to hit the wall too quick. And I see why you wouldn't want to head down the wave. The only experience I can relate to this is paddling my kayak in surf, going out through the wave break, if going too slow, I was amazed how a wave could so quickly stop me going forward then accelerate me backwards. Once the wave had given me speed, that is, imparted energy, I was in trouble, especially since it was backwards. Not exactly what you were saying, Paul, but just visualising from my limited experience.
__________________
troppo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2010, 07:12   #74
Registered User
 
PamlicoTraveler's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Depends
Boat: SB 43' Cutter
Posts: 679
Images: 13
I was thinking of the Perfect Storm wave myself, because that is the image I have of a wave that would present no good options. Try to climb it and risk being thrown backwards, end over end, or go with it and get crushed by the breaking wave.

I think the most encouraging thing is that this scenario is unlikely to ever present itself.
__________________
PamlicoTraveler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2010, 07:20   #75
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by PamlicoTraveler View Post
I was thinking of the Perfect Storm wave myself, because that is the image I have of a wave that would present no good options. Try to climb it and risk being thrown backwards, end over end, or go with it and get crushed by the breaking wave.
My plan in that scenario would be to get to the bow. and hang ten. dude
__________________

__________________
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Freak Wave - Compound Leg Fracture TaoJones Cruising News & Events 10 14-12-2009 14:33
Freak O' Nature BIG JOE Meets & Greets 14 14-10-2009 23:23
Yachtsmen 'died in freak accident' sctpc Pacific & South China Sea 21 14-08-2008 15:49
Witnesses tell of freak death of Steve Irwin CaptainK Off Topic Forum 7 04-09-2006 16:06



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:10.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.