Sea Trial Question - Who Can Go?

[Bash]

I've never been considered the sole owner of a boat, at least not for the past 32 years since getting married. Since then, my wife is co-owner.

I wouldn't dream of asking her to skip a sea trial on a boat that she's about to help me purchase.

[slomotion]

Originally Posted by svHyLyte

Moreover, I would (and did in past) require all to sign a simple waiver of liability and hold-harmless agreement as things can happen even under benign conditions.

If this makes you feel better, by all means go ahead and do it. But it is basically unenforceable. In general, it is against public policy to contract away liability for negligence - which is about the only source of potential liability for the owner on a sea trial.

[Reality Check]

A sea trial is not a sail.... it is an evaluation and Not some outing for the family. The buyer and surveyor and possibly the broker and owner should be the total number on any thing in the 30 to 50 foot range in a sailboat maybe an additional working crew for large power boats.

I would think many sellers would consider having a full family including kids similar to a free sailing vacation... Maybe if they paid a Fee that could be counted as part of the purchase price if the transaction went through but forfeited if not. Something just under a standard Charter fee.

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by hoppy

Is there a possibility that some people take their family on "joy rides" under the pretence of being interested to buy? Perhaps the owner is trying to filter them out?

Definitely a possibility. However, one normally wouldn't be at the sea trial stage unless the 10% deposit has changed hands and the contract signed, and the surveyor hired (usually it's the LAST phase of the survey, with all else including hauling for bottom inspection completed). The sea trial is a contract contingency. (That would be a lot of buyer expense/trouble and scam role playing just for a 2-hour day sail.)

Having read the other responses I agree it should only be the "stake-holders" (husband/wife, broker, seller optional) and buyer's surveyor. It's business and too many people are a distraction.

Kids can see the boat prior, and climb all through, and make their views heard prior to contract signing. You will never see "if your kids like it" as a contract contingency. The stake-holders need to concentrate on "systems" and function.

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by SailFastTri

Definitely a possibility. However, one normally wouldn't be at the sea trial stage unless the 10% deposit has changed hands and the contract signed, and the surveyor hired (usually it's the LAST phase of the survey, with all else including hauling for bottom inspection completed). The sea trial is a contract contingency. (That would be a lot of buyer expense/trouble and scam role playing just for a 2-hour day sail.)

Having read the other responses I agree it should only be the "stake-holders" (husband/wife, broker, seller optional) and buyer's surveyor. It's business and too many people are a distraction.

Kids can see the boat prior, and climb all through, and make their views heard prior to contract signing. You will never see "if your kids like it" as a contract contingency. The stake-holders need to concentrate on "systems" and function.

That is good to hear. I was wondering how people go about buying a boat, since I hope I will be buying next year I was thinking of posting a question about the best approach and what you mention sounds sensible to me.

When I bought my Searay, I did not try it until it was bought and paid for, but it was a year old, still under warranty (2 years), bought from the Swedish distributor and I keep it at their marina 2 km from my home, so if there were any problems I just dropped the spare keys to them.

My next boat purchase will not be that easy as it will be purchased several hours flying time from Sweden

[Ex-Calif]

We asked for and got 2 days of sea trial. We executed a purchase agreement with a refundable 10% deposited.

Day one sea trial were the potential co-owners. We kept the boat out for 4 hours.

Day two was the family with the previous owner. The previous owner elected not to go on day 2, having technically passed the sea trial. We had issues that we identified on day one but the family absolutely had to buy in or it was no sale. We sailed 6 hours with the family on day 2.

Over the 2 days we motored 4+ hours - by choice because we wanted to wring out the engine.

I could never buy a boat with a one or two hour sea trial - never...

There are lots of boats - get what you want. If the seller is not agreeable move on.

[MarkJ]

Take the wife, don't take the kids.
Get on the wheel and push the boat HARD to windward for 10 mins and then tack hard to windward for 10 minutes then check the path on the plotter to see what your effective tacking angle is.
Its just no good to realise 6 months later that you tack through 120 degrees or more. You need to know now.

You need your wife on board she she can watch people when they know you are not looking.

And she will find things you don't see. How? Because all women are evil. Oops, sorry.. ummm because all women... well, errrrrr..... women... Can someone help me here!???????????





Have fun with it! Remember its YOUR survey!


Good luck

Mark

[MarkJ]

By the way, I would give anyone a sea trial anytime if they looked at all serious. Get the buyers on the water and show them your best attributes! The boat under sail! Why wait for them to shell out 10%?

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

By the way, I would give anyone a sea trial anytime if they looked at all serious. Get the buyers on the water and show them your best attributes! The boat under sail! Why wait for them to shell out 10%?

That may work for you Mark -- but most of us have jobs and families with limited time to pal around with people who only have a casual interest or curiosity. Anyone who's been in the profession of "sales" knows that you must "qualify" a buyer early in the process or you will waste a lot of time spinning your wheels without traction.

If they've expressed interest in a test sail that does not qualify. They must be willing and ready to sign on the line, for the right boat, and (unless you're retired and happy just to have crew) you must get them to commit to that before you waste your time.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

By the way, I would give anyone a sea trial anytime if they looked at all serious. Get the buyers on the water and show them your best attributes! The boat under sail! Why wait for them to shell out 10%?

SeaLife is for sale? Dang just because she doesn't have davits - LOL...

I know, I know. Every boat is for sale for a price...

[Chief Engineer]

You develop a sense for them......I don't know how you discern it...it is kind of a learned thing.....

Originally Posted by hoppy

Is there a possibility that some people take their family on "joy rides" under the pretence of being interested to buy? Perhaps the owner is trying to filter them out?

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by Chief Engineer

You develop a sense for them......I don't know how you discern it...it is kind of a learned thing.....

At the moment I am taking the easy way out and have the local Searay dealer doing the selling work for me.

It's just a shame that no one will be buying boats in this country for another 6 months. Then again I might get lucky as my boat is sitting in their showroom. Regardless, there will be no test drives for a while.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

SeaLife is for sale? Dang just because she doesn't have davits - LOL...

I know, I know. Every boat is for sale for a price...

LOL. NO! But if it was then anyone could come for a sail before they pay 10%.

When YOU finally come for a sail I won't charge you 10%! (Maybe 5% for the damage to my beer can supply.....)





mark

[svHyLyte]

Regarding my comment concerning requiring a waiver of liability...

Originally Posted by slomotion

If this makes you feel better, by all means go ahead and do it. But it is basically unenforceable. In general, it is against public policy to contract away liability for negligence - which is about the only source of potential liability for the owner on a sea trial.

With all due respect, I beg to differ. If a release of liability was basically "unenforceable" and against public policy virtually no child in the US would ever go on a field trip sponsored by his/her school.

The following is abstracted from a more comprehensive discussion of the subject:

A “waiver or release of liability” is an agreement by one person (or entity) not to enforce his or her legal rights against another person (or entity). More specifically, a “waiver” is an agreement by a person not to sue another while a “release” is an agreement by a person that he or she no longer has a right to sue another. The two types of provisions are essentially equivalent. For example, in connection with a school field trip, a parent might be asked to sign a waiver as follows:

“I waive any liabilities that the ABCSchool, and its teachers and administrators, may have to me or my child as a result of any injury to my child because of my child's participation in a field trip to the XYZArt Museum.”

Or, a similar release might be worded:

“I release the ABCSchool, and its teachers and administrators, from any liabilities that they may have to me or my child because of my child’s … [same as waiver].”

If the child is injured on the field trip and the law would (or might) hold the ABCSchool (or its agents) liable to the parent for such injuries, the waiver or release means that such liabilities will be ignored (i.e., the parent has given up any legal right to sue over such injuries and therefore may not do so). The effect of the waiver or release is to shift some of the risk of injury (i.e., legal exposure) associated with the field trip from the ABCSchool to the parents. In effect, each parent agrees to assume any risks inherent with his or her child’s participation in the field trip. This is true regardless of whether the parent has the financial ability personally, or by way of insurance,
to assume such risk. By reducing its legal exposure, the ABCSchool hopes to reduce the costs associated with conducting field trips (if the ABCSchool chooses to buy insurance to cover its legal exposure, the cost of such insurance should be somewhat lower as a result of the reduced liability). Note that if a teacher were to intentionally harm the child, the ABCSchool would still be liable to the parent for that injury – some liabilities may not legally be shifted by a waiver or release.

As for the import of the foregoing to sailing, waivers and releases from liability are specifically contemplated by US Sailing in The Racing Rules of Sailing 2009-2012 (RRS) at Appendix K, paragraph 20, and Appendix L, instruction 29. While the foregoing applies to the organizer of a sailing event, the principal holds for individual yacht owners as well.

The import of the foregoing was impressed upon me by an event in San Francisco in the mid-'70's. During a "sea trial" by a young couple contemplating the purchase of a boat from one of our club members, the young woman steering the yacht allowed her attention to drift while running off, resulting in a crash gybe of the main. As the boom swept across the forward end of the cockpit, it slammed into the back of her husband's head, knocking him, face first, into one of the primaries. Although the CG soon evacuated the young man, he later died from his injuries at Marin General Hospital. The widow--who had caused the accident--subsequently sued the Broker and the boat owner for their "negligence" ("...you should have realized that a young woman with limited sailing experience wan't qualified to handle the boat in 15 knts of wind..."). In the end it was only the executed acknowledgement of risk and waiver of liability that kept the owner from loosing his boat.

Never-the-less, each person is entitled to their own take on the matter.

FWIW...