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Old 28-09-2011, 00:26   #31
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Re: Sails vs Diesel

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Originally Posted by cat man do View Post
So you agree that we'll still have fuel to burn.

Yeah, until it's gets so expensive the average John can't afford it.


No, we arent as gun happy in Oz as the US, but the fact remains that there is no shortage of bullets being fired as I type, so that would suggest no shortage of gunpowder

Didn't say there was a shortage, just hard to get.

No I haven't, but the fact remains that they are a fuel source IN ADDITION to wood, which you claimed was about the only fuel left.
Add various fuels from ethanol, vegetable oils, seed oils, algae etc etc

Fuel that's readily available.

Perhaps average John in America should give up their addiction to driving big gas guzzling SUV's, trucks and muscle cars and have some more consideration to the rest of the worlds future needs.

There are very few SUV's in my area, and what there is are hybreds. Trucks are for jobs and muscle cars are for the wealthy auto collectors. Not many of them around here. I think your about 10 years late on your news reports.

Perhaps Average John in America should look to more fuel efficient means of transportation like other countries do


And what do you think this discussion is about?

And yes, I have a steppie for around my immediate area
And use public transport when available most other times
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Old 28-09-2011, 01:01   #32
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Re: Sails vs Diesel

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Originally Posted by cat man do View Post
So you agree that we'll still have fuel to burn.


No, we arent as gun happy in Oz as the US, but the fact remains that there is no shortage of bullets being fired as I type, so that would suggest no shortage of gunpowder

No I haven't, but the fact remains that they are a fuel source IN ADDITION to wood, which you claimed was about the only fuel left.
Add various fuels from ethanol, vegetable oils, seed oils, algae etc etc

Perhaps average John in America should give up their addiction to driving big gas guzzling SUV's, trucks and muscle cars and have some more consideration to the rest of the worlds future needs.
Perhaps Average John in America should look to more fuel efficient means of transportation like other countries do

And yes, I have a steppie for around my immediate area
And use public transport when available most other times
Well aren't you being a tad sensitive, and self righteous...
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Old 28-09-2011, 01:17   #33
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Re: Sails vs Diesel

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Well aren't you being a tad sensitive, and self righteous...
Not at all
Its just my observations out in the world that some countries use much more of the worlds resources than others, almost like the feel they are entitled in some way.
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Old 28-09-2011, 03:52   #34
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Re: Sails vs Diesel

It's an interesting point. The answer depends on the boat. On my boat, with much more expensive sails than in your hypothetical, and on the contrary, easily driven hull which only requires about 6 liters of diesel an hour to go 8 knots in calm weather, I think running the diesel may actually be cheaper.

But then, we don't sail to save money, do we?

But I think your point is very worthwhile -- wind power is not "free".
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Old 28-09-2011, 05:16   #35
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Re: Sails vs Diesel

I changed from diesel to electric propusion in 2008:
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: Going electric: Part 1: The why and how
and life on board has been so much better. I have saved hundreds of dollars in maintenance costs as the only real maintenance I have done in four years has been one quart oil changes for the Honda 2000 generator. Only used about seven gallons of gas last year too. Probably used a little more this year as I did not reinstall the 48 volt wind generator yet after a repainting job. But, use is still under ten gallons. Just carry two 2.5 gallon jerry jugs of gas for most cruises.
That said I also sail more too. But, I also sail differently. Lot's of time in light winds I will electro sail. Because of the ability to turn the prop from 0 to max with electric propulsion I can null out the prop drag in light winds (or anytime I please) without the noise and vibration of turning on a diesel while using minimum amps and without buying an expensive folding prop. IMO electric propusion is the perfect fit for those who have a "sailboat".
Now I would not pull out a perfectly operating diesel to do the conversion but, my diesel died when a cylinder head suddenly cracked. As I thought about a rebuild vs. new diesel I also looked for an alternatives. I'm very happy with electric propulsion conversion. Though I'm even happier when the wind pipes up:
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: HAPPY AT THE HELM!
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Old 28-09-2011, 07:35   #36
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Re: Sails vs Diesel

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Surely even if properly cared for time plays a factor in the usable life of a sail?
Absolutely. But things like cleaning, freshwater rinses, proper flaking, eagle-eye on the chafe issues, can keep a sail going a surprisingly long time. There are people posting here (Leonard and Starzinger, the Pardeys) who've turned "care and feeding" into an art form of sorts, and boast quite functional sails with seemingly extreme amounts of travel in miles and time on them.

Part of this, and perhaps the main part, is investing at the front end. Going to a proper sailmaker and getting the right reinforcements, triple-stitching, chafe patches and all the rest means spending more in the first place, and knowing that the light-air composites suitable for a couple of seasons' worth of club racing aren't going to likely survive the punishment of 150 days on passage per year (which is perhaps even more than some would be on passage, even on a circ).

The other part, of course, is "reef early, reef often". If the sails aren't kept up in winds that distort and stress them with sheer air pressure, then it's more likely they will hold their intended shape. That's why, the virtues of roller furling aside, it's a clever idea to have a few storm sails of the overbuilt kind available: to preserve the working sails and to resist the temptation to put out "a handkerchief". Lighter working sails should not be used in storm conditions if you want them to last, in my view.

It's the same way in very light air. Flogging/slatting sails are by definitiion chafing in some aspects. So perhaps we can think of diesel complementing sail by virtue that you can switch on the engine and motor in order to save the sails. Others will invest in gigantic cruising spis or Code Zeros in order to keep moving, but that's another break point in terms of cost and stowage that some may not have.
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Old 28-09-2011, 08:41   #37
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Re: Sails vs Diesel

G'Day all,

You know, this whole discussion seems silly to me. As far as I know, few of us on the CF are sailing in order to provide cheap transportation... we are sailing because we enjoy the act and the art of doing it. The same goes for those in cruising motor yachts (even though I don't understand the appeal!).

If you want a cheap means of getting somewhere, public transportation wins hands down.

Ann and I enjoy enjoy sailing a quick, responsive, durable and somewhat elegant boat. We have spent more money to achieve this than was required just to do the many miles we've covered, or to provide our home for the past 25 years. Do we wish that we had saved a few thousand bucks by motoring all those miles? I don't think so. Do we wish that we had stretched the life of our sails a few extra thousand miles/years to save money at the expense of poor performance? Again, no. We, and I suspect most of you fellow CFers, sail and cruise because it brings us pleasure, and pleasure usually has costs attached. If motoring brings you pleasure, go for it... you probably don't really care if you could get to the next anchorage for a few bucks less if you had sails.

On the water, I try to remember "each to his own" and cut folks doing it differently a bit of slack. This offer does not extend to Jet Skis, BTW!

Cheers,

Jim and Ann
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Old 28-09-2011, 09:07   #38
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Re: Sails vs Diesel

I crossed the Pacific, San Fran to Oz total fuel cost $300. And some of that was battery charging.
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Old 28-09-2011, 09:23   #39
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Re: Sails vs Diesel

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You know, this whole discussion seems silly to me.
Well said Jim.
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Old 28-09-2011, 18:51   #40
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Re: Sails vs Diesel

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Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
Dates are for nuts. And I hope not in my lifetime.

Have you tried to buy gun powder lately?

Have you ever stored coal, tapped for gas or tried to produce coconut oil? Not an EZ task! And costly as well. The average John doesn't have a clue, and John is the biggest consumer.
Here in Canada we have much more restrictive firearm laws then in the US, but I just picked up some H4350 and primers. Walked into Cabela's, went to and picked out what I wanted, paid and left the store.

No problems. Never had a problem getting any reloading stuff, unless I am trying to order from the States, and then it is impossible.
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