Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 4 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
Old 29-01-2012, 18:55   #91
Registered User
 
dandrews's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Shirley, MA
Boat: Bristol 34
Posts: 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by hummingway

Hmmm .... maybe I'm doing something right after all!
Flogging does not count....whistleing

Don
__________________

__________________
dandrews is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-01-2012, 19:27   #92
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Wharram custom 44'
Posts: 231
Re: Sailors Don't Know How to Set Sails ?

Jewl114,
I was told this by an old windsurfer back about 1980 or so, I then learned how to windsurf and found out a lot more about sail trim from Rhonda Smith. You feel the sail force and when it gets too much, of course you have to go to a harness, and of course you max out at some point.
I am angry at the topic of this thread, if sailors don't know how to trim sails, who the hell else does? And by sailors, who are you referring to?
I know how to trim sails. I know how to balance a boat and a rig. I like sailing with skippers who know how to do this. It's not a big mystery.
If you don't know how to trim your sails, then you're probably not a sailor.
__________________

__________________
kaimusailing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-01-2012, 21:24   #93
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,454
Re: Sailors Don't Know How to Set Sails ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ty.gregory View Post
How to get a good trim?

First off, you go find a guy named Al. (Usually short for Alfonse.) You say, "Al,how's the wife?"

He says, "Better than nothin'."

You say, "Take a little off the sides and hide the bald spot."

Al says, "I'm a barber not a magician!"

You laugh, I don't know why, but it's vitally important you do.

Barbers named Burt are often okay, but IMHO, a safer bet would be to stick to Als.

Nose hair cost extra, I usually trim that myself.

And that about covers it.

BTW, I truely can't believe we're discussing all this in a sailing forum.
And when Al's work doesn't meet your expectations for trim, then or course you must revert to that most useful bit of kit, the Barber Hauler. If you are a nice guy, then you will use it again to haul Al back on board.

Cheers,

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-01-2012, 21:36   #94
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29° 49.16’ N 82° 25.82’ W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,379
Re: Sailors don't know how to set sails ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobconnie View Post
Well we only sail for long distance, we allmost never day sail nor do we race. So we just set the sails for a comfy ride ! I don't mind bearing off a few degrees to get a boat that almost sails it's self ! My Idea of going from Cabo to Seattle against the normaly northers that blow down the coast is to bear off shore for 7 or 8 days and turn right and sail for a few days and ck the GPS against my star sites and set a good course for the straights. it works for me and my stuff lasts ! just an old sailors 2 cents Bob and Connie
?????????

Your profile says Defever 43 LRC. When did they start putting sails on those?
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-01-2012, 22:51   #95
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,750
Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel1

How do I adjust the leech line.I know that it may need tensioning a tad coming off the wind, and slacking a bit when luffing up, but I cannot reach the adjustment.
Same on the main, when reefed, I find I need to tension the leech line just an inch, but geting to it is risking life and limb.
I use a boat hook.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-être pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2012, 03:14   #96
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead

I use a boat hook.
No one said it was easy - LOL. I often see the leech line pulled on hard and knotted off. The leech is closed and inefficient and you can tell it is never adjusted.

Also when there is plenty of power (wind) a perfect blade shaped main may not be necessary. It has less drag but also a smaller steering angle. With full wind you can have a more cambered main sail with a little more drag but a bigger steering angle. This also helps keep the sail powered in chop.

Also do not forget the effect of excessive heel on keel performance. It is the keel providing lift that takes you to windward.
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2012, 03:27   #97
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif
Also do not forget the effect of excessive heel on keel performance. It is the keel providing lift that takes you to windward.
Finally somebody mentioning the vector from the keel that provides the resulting forward vector for upwind sailing. The sails need to balance the keel and that changes as SOW changes.

Think there are only a handful of sailors in this thread that grasp the very basics of what makes a sailboat move, what causes weatherhelm etc. and it seems they all come from a background of dinghy racing.

cheers,
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2012, 03:40   #98
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Finally somebody mentioning the vector from the keel that provides the resulting forward vector for upwind sailing. The sails need to balance the keel and that changes as SOW changes.

Think there are only a handful of sailors in this thread that grasp the very basics of what makes a sailboat move, what causes weatherhelm etc. and it seems they all come from a background of dinghy racing.

cheers,
Nick.
Been biting my tongue for a couple of days. I really thought it would come out in the "sailing vectors" post but after so many posts no one mentioned how a boat goes to weather...
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2012, 03:46   #99
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,750
Re: Sailors Don't Know How to Set Sails ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
No one said it was easy - LOL. I often see the leech line pulled on hard and knotted off. The leech is closed and inefficient and you can tell it is never adjusted.
My sails have kind of curved metal cleats with teeth that take the leech lines. If you pull down on the leech line, the cleat takes up the slack and holds it tighter. If you pull out on the leech line, it releases all the tension and you can start over again.

I rarely need any leech line tension. I would rather have a little gentle flutter in the leech, than mess up the shape of the leech with that ugly curl. If the flutter is more than gentle, it is usually a sign of a different problem, in my experience, not usually solvable with a leech line.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2012, 03:56   #100
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

Been biting my tongue for a couple of days. I really thought it would come out in the "sailing vectors" post but after so many posts no one mentioned how a boat goes to weather...
Exactly. I forced myself to shut up when the forward vector was said to be the result of sail drive and drag only. Lift of keel and rudder is little understood. There's plenty of sources that explain it on-line I guess, but they don't seemvery popular

ciao!
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2012, 03:57   #101
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Melbourne Australia
Boat: Paper Tiger 14 foot, Gemini 105MC 34 foot Catamaran Hull no 825
Posts: 1,616
Re: Sailors Don't Know How to Set Sails ?

Here you go people, this is the Gemini owners manual on how to sail a Gemini.

Knock your selves out on it,

This is what I used to cross 3 oceans with,

I think they know what they are talking about.

But I would like your opinion on it,

Cheers,
Brian,
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Gemini sail configuartion,.jpg
Views:	114
Size:	141.5 KB
ID:	36672   Click image for larger version

Name:	Gemini sail configuartion, 2.jpg
Views:	85
Size:	99.8 KB
ID:	36673  

Click image for larger version

Name:	Gemini sail configuartion, 3.jpg
Views:	95
Size:	138.6 KB
ID:	36674   Click image for larger version

Name:	Gemini sail configuartion, 4.jpg
Views:	81
Size:	153.3 KB
ID:	36675  

__________________
Mr B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2012, 04:14   #102
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B
Here you go people, this is the Gemini owners manual on how to sail a Gemini.

Knock your selves out on it,

This is what I used to cross 3 oceans with,

I think they know what they are talking about.

But I would like your opinion on it,

Cheers,
Brian,
Just an observation but it seems to be 50% sales pitch and 50% sailing guide.

Not a Gemini sailor but the most useful thing appears to be the sail choice table. Doesn't really address trimming the sails in a meaningful way.
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2012, 04:16   #103
Pusher of String
 
foolishsailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: On the hard; Trinidad
Boat: Trisbal 42, Aluminum Cutter Rigged Sloop
Posts: 2,314
Images: 19
Re: Sailors don't know how to set sails ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randyonr3 View Post
Took a Lady sailing with me a few years ago.. she happened to be a TacTiction for one of the "Cup" training boats.. thought we were going sailing for a nice afternoon But once we hoisted the sails out beyond the break water, she climbed atop the cabin looking up at the sails and pointed out to me that she was in her "Spot" for trimming and to just follow her lead..
Thought I knew what I was doing until she came aboard but found that even with my years of racing, I still had more to learn..
as I followed her orders and tweeked the sail, I found speeds on a constant level I had only seen in breef spurts....
When done, I looked up at the sails and saw wrinkles and buckles all over the sail, a very UGLY sight in my mind as I was used to triming a perfect foil in the sail..
I then realized that I was trimming for SHAPE and not for SPEED.. and they are different..
so having a perfect smooth and definded sail shape is not always the fastest.. sometimes UGLY is fastest........
what you are describing sounds like what racers call "speed wrinkles" - when you are in really light air you want the entry angle on the luff of your sails as flat as possible so to do this you fully ease your downhaul/cunningham and ease your halyard just a titch so that the luff of your main and headsail have some wrinkles in them. This shifts your draft very far back and allows you to point high and go fast in light air...

...this works great as well for those long light air passages.

There is always the argument of "it is not the destination but the journey" but as a racer and a cruiser I like both and dont see any reason why I shouldnt optimise my sails when it takes such little effort to add 1/2 or more of a knot to my boat speed...this can take days off long passages.

This also harks back to the thread on whether one should take lessons or not...

...it is nigh impossible to learn optimal trim without either racing extensively or taking lessons. Not because everyone isnt capable - because you can still cross oceans and sail around the world very successfully with shitty sail trim and not know it - and in fairness be totally happy.

..guess it comes down to different strokes for differnt folks - but why do something poorly if you know it can be done better?
__________________
"So, rather than appear foolish afterward, I renounce seeming clever now."
William of Baskerville

"You will do foolish things, but do them with enthusiasm."
Sidonie Gabrielle Colette
foolishsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2012, 04:16   #104
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B
Here you go people, this is the Gemini owners manual on how to sail a Gemini.

Knock your selves out on it,

This is what I used to cross 3 oceans with,

I think they know what they are talking about.

But I would like your opinion on it,

Cheers,
Brian,
It looks good up to the heavy weather section. From there on it is nonsense and probably written by lawyers. It assumes offshore boats are racers only and that there are no production offshore boats.

The section about cats being safest during storms at sea must be a straight copy from the multi hull section here on CF

ciao!
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2012, 04:58   #105
Pusher of String
 
foolishsailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: On the hard; Trinidad
Boat: Trisbal 42, Aluminum Cutter Rigged Sloop
Posts: 2,314
Images: 19
Re: Sailors Don't Know How to Set Sails ?

Couple of tips for upwind...

1. Dont think of your sails as two separate sails - think of them as one large sail

2. You cant learn to trim if you cant see what you are doing. Add tell tails to your sails


3. Very generally – flatter in heavy wind, fuller in light wind. When the wind pipes up tighten all your control lines such as outhaul, downhaul/Cunningham and vang (however with vang in really heavy air you want to open up again…

Jib: 3 sets of 3 tell tails on each side – use different colors such as red/green
Set 1: 1' aft of the luff spread vertically from the top 1/4 of the sail to the bottom 1/4.
Set 2: mid way between luff and leech same height as the 1st set
set 3: 1' forward of leech spread same as previous two

Main: Depending on size usually 3 sets of 3 or 4
Same spread as above on head sail except:
Set 3: should be attached to the leech of the main. Be carefull how you attach them so that there is not a bias to the way they stream - this will make it hard to see trim in light airs. You want them streaming off the end of the sail. Also if you have battens you want them off the battens and importantly off the top batten.


4. There are three sides to “white” sails and each generally has a line that controls it.


Main:
Luff: Halyard and Cunningham/Downhaul
Leech: Boomvang, Sheet and Backstay
Foot: Outhaul


Jib:
Luff: Halyard
Leech: Fairlead
Foot: Fairlead and to some extend Sheet

Basic trim tips for jib:
All 3 sets on both sides should be streaming aft. Ideally the ones on the windward side should be just “lifting” – ie pointing just above horizontal. Ease the sail towards the tales that are not flying.


To get them all flying you will need to adjust the fairlead. Trim the sail until the bottom tales are flying. If the top tales on the inside are not flying then move the fairlead forward until they do., if the ones on the outside are not flying ease the fairlead back until they do.


4. Always optimize your headsail before your mainsail.


Basic trim tip for main upwind:


Tip 1: You want the telltales that are streaming off the leech to be flying 50% of the time. That means you don’t want them streaming hard aft instead you want them to fly, drop, fly, drop about 50% each. This gives you your optimal attached flow and entry angle for the main.


Tip 2: Once you have the tales flying you can optimise the sheet and vang tension based on the angle of the aft end of the top batten.


In light airs (0-8kts) it should point 5-10 degrees to weather (0degrees would be parralell to the boom, this can be seen by looking up the sail from under the boom and once you get used to it you can spot it easily from the helm)


In Med Airs (10kts -15kts) it should point parallel to the boom


In heavy airs 15kts+ it should point to lee of the boom.


Triming the main pulls the batten to weather (once already close hauled) and easing it opens to lee



Tip 3: Use your traveller


To get the above right your traveller needs to be involved. You always want your main as close to the center as possible until it creates too much weather helm. Generally in light air you will have the traveller all the way up on the windward side of the boat and the main centered and in heavy air you will want the traveller all the way down on the lee side of the boat.


Tip 4: Weather helm is dangerous, hard on your equipment and slow – fix it to go fast


When racing you never allow more than 5degree of weather helm going up wind and it is a good idea to stick to that as well when cruising as it will save wear and tear and power drain on your autopilot as well as slow you down.


Quick adjustments to solve weather helm issues using main


1. 1. “Drop” the traveller – lower the traveller to lee until the helm feels more balanced


2. Ease the vang, ease the sheet, or tighten backstay – this opens up the leech at the top of the sail and depowers the top of the sail. As this is a long way from the center of effort the power up here creates a lot of heel and even a small depowering by opening up the leech works wonders.


3. Shift the draft of your sails. By tightening the luff of your sails you move draft forward by easing you move it back – you can work this one out on your own boat

Number One Tip: Look at what you are trimming.

If you look at the sail when you are adjusting it you will clearly see what is changing. For example if you look at your main when it is sheeted really hard in and you ease the sheet even a couple of inches you will see a dramatic change in the position of the leech and it is clear what adjusting that line, even a bit does.


My quick brain dump – hope it helps someone…
__________________

__________________
"So, rather than appear foolish afterward, I renounce seeming clever now."
William of Baskerville

"You will do foolish things, but do them with enthusiasm."
Sidonie Gabrielle Colette
foolishsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
sails

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sails and Rigging Made in China reiner Dollars & Cents 132 23-01-2014 11:28
Route Properties, Missing Functions James Baines OpenCPN 13 13-07-2011 05:31



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:51.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.