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Old 01-02-2012, 07:24   #151
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Re: Sailors Don't Know How to Set Sails ?

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Originally Posted by ctl411 View Post
The hunter 25 in the test is a cherubini not a fat ass model. The hull had a year of growth, the increase in efficiency mostly came from getting the grass out of the water. They also don't mention the outboard, was it getting out more with heel?
fair point.

Good discussion over at sailnet with the link i posted above about optimal heel. There would be many informed and different opinions and experts definitely disagreeing with my position on the topic in the thread.

Worth a read and the thread has some really pretty pics of computer analytics of flow at verticle and at heel...
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Old 01-02-2012, 07:44   #152
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pirate Re: Sailors Don't Know How to Set Sails ?

My 1st boat was an old wooden bilgekeeler with hard chines... she had a fractional rig with inner forestay... a 24ft Magyar 7
When I'd finished abusing her with epoxy and black paint in Keyhaven I decided to launch her and sail her to Poole where I lived..
Problem was I only had an old but useable main, a no;3 jib high cut and a storm sail that fitted on the inner stay..
Ended up sailing her to Poole with the storm jib and the no;3 upside down... oh and the main of course...
Anyway... made great time to Poole taking the inner cut by the light and cutting across Christchurch Bay and Hengistbury Head.. as we entered Poole entrance the tide was running against us but she made light work... on passing a Nic 32 they eyed the rig and started laughing...
"What dya call that.." the skipper yelled across...
"A Buldiwell goes faster than yours..." I yelled back...
Mind... he did catch up when he switched on the engine...
Guess I'm trying to say... don't get lost in the technicalities... just tweak...
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Old 06-02-2012, 23:16   #153
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Re: Sailors Don't Know How to Set Sails ?

Just before this thread dies out I would like to thank all those who contributed, especially those more knowledgeable than myself (which is about everyone). I did learn a lot and setting the sails is certainly a black art that needs practise.
It is certainly an in depth subject that could not be covered here but at least we got some direction on the way to go.
Thank you
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Old 09-02-2012, 23:54   #154
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Re: Sailors Don't Know How to Set Sails ?

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I've raced on five or six different race boats, and all skippers put weight on the lee rail in light conditions, targeting about 15 degrees of heel. They all said this was because the boat was designed to go upwind with some heel.
The waterline of most keelboats increases when they are heeled. What this means is that hull speed increases correspondingly. Unfortunately, boats don't come anywhere near hull speed in light air, so asking the crew to provide leeward weight, a common racing practice, rarely pays off.

In dinghy sailing, everything changes. Since hull speed is generally not a factor in a dinghy race, especially when planing hulls are involved, the ideal 99% of the time is to keep the boat as flat as possible when going to weather.

In collegiate sailing (I'm faculty advisor of a university sailing team) we still call for leeward weight downwind in light air, but this is more a matter of flying the jib higher in classes that don't use spinnakers. The spinnaker dinghies tend to want to keep the boat flat regardless of whether they're running, reaching or close hauled.

One can't speculate that a given trim or attitude is ideal for all monos. Displacement keelboats present an entirely different trim situation than planing hulls. It's not just how many hulls you have that matters, but the hydrodynamic design of the hulls as well.
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Old 10-02-2012, 06:45   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash

The waterline of most keelboats increases when they are heeled. What this means is that hull speed increases correspondingly. Unfortunately, boats don't come anywhere near hull speed in light air, so asking the crew to provide leeward weight, a common racing practice, rarely pays off.

In dinghy sailing, everything changes. Since hull speed is generally not a factor in a dinghy race, especially when planing hulls are involved, the ideal 99% of the time is to keep the boat as flat as possible when going to weather.

In collegiate sailing (I'm faculty advisor of a university sailing team) we still call for leeward weight downwind in light air, but this is more a matter of flying the jib higher in classes that don't use spinnakers. The spinnaker dinghies tend to want to keep the boat flat regardless of whether they're running, reaching or close hauled.

One can't speculate that a given trim or attitude is ideal for all monos. Displacement keelboats present an entirely different trim situation than planing hulls. It's not just how many hulls you have that matters, but the hydrodynamic design of the hulls as well.
Modem production boats cruising or otherwise with flat transoms and near vertical stems are designed to be sailed as upright as possible typically upto 10 degrees or a little more. They benefit from early reefing. The waterline does not change very significantly when heeled. Excessive heeling causes rudder cavitation, excessive weather helm and slows the boat.

Dave
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Old 10-02-2012, 13:41   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Modem production boats cruising or otherwise with flat transoms and near vertical stems are designed to be sailed as upright as possible typically upto 10 degrees or a little more. They benefit from early reefing. The waterline does not change very significantly when heeled. Excessive heeling causes rudder cavitation, excessive weather helm and slows the boat.

Dave
This would hold true for all post IOR fin and spade cruising boats. They are designed for less than 15 degrees and one can speak to the manufacturer to get their optimal heel angle and polars. However fin and spade would be considered medium displacement generally and heavy displacement which would generally consist of a modified keel upto full keel designs would have different optimal heel angles.

Since it is impossible to keep a boat flat, without the use of movable ballast such as a chanting keel say, by the nature of the forces applied most boats will always be at heel even if only 10 degrees.

Also for boats with wide backs any heel upto a certain point will dramatically reduce wetted surface even if it doesn't increase LWL and in light airs where you are not at hull speed I wonder if heel even if induced would yield a higher speed due to less drag associated with wetted surface?
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Old 12-02-2012, 11:16   #157
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Just saw a talk by Derek Hatfield at the Vancouver boat show. Open 60s cant their keel to leeward in very light winds to maintain sail shape.
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Old 13-02-2012, 08:16   #158
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Re: Sailors Don't Know How to Set Sails ?

i was going to put together a sail trim "cheat sheet" for myself but came across this in an article (i've had to redraw it but info is a straight copy)

any comments on it's correctness?

and my thanks as well for an interesting discussion
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File Type: pdf Visio-sail trim1.pdf (410.3 KB, 40 views)
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Old 13-02-2012, 09:18   #159
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Re: Sailors Don't Know How to Set Sails ?

Everything in the primer is generally correct but since it just says "forward" or "aft" it doesn't give amounts or offer the individual reading it a gauge to judge when it is correct. Especially if the starting point is wrong like the position of the fairlead

It would be better to include what to look for when changing a control line, for example when talking about the fair lead adjustment state "when top tails on lee side are luffing move car aft when weather tails are luffing move car forward"
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