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Old 11-05-2010, 04:54   #91
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Thank you. I was wondering if we were surrounded by idiots.
Unfortunately you are (myself included)

Decane = 10*12 + 22*1 = 142 and not 144 as originally posted. Grrr.... Still, nobody noticed and it makes very little difference so if I don't mention it...

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Now if you could determain the chemical reaction to ensure a great sail tomorrow....
No problemo. just a little mix of nuclear physics and some fluid dynamics...

4H -> He + 25MeV - H20 + (temp < dev point) = great weather

in other words, sunshine, no rain, fog or heavy cloud = good weather.

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Old 11-05-2010, 05:40   #92
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OK - quick and rough. Diesel is made up of a mix of alkanes with (roughly) 8 to 20 carbon atoms. The formula is CnH2n+2 so octane (n=8) is C8H18 and hexdecane (n=16) is C16H34, etc.

Carbon atoms have a atomic mass of 12, Oxygen is 16 so if we take something like decane (C10H22) then those 10 carbons need 20 oxygens and the 22 hydrogens need 11 oxygens. So adding up the weights.

Decane = 10*12 + 22*1 = 144 <--142

10 CO2 molecules = 10 * ( 12 + 16 + 16 ) = 440
11 H2O molecules = 11 * ( 1 + 1 + 18 ) = 220

So we can see that "burning" one molecule of decane uses a great deal of oxygen and produces considerably more "weight" of CO2. The ratio is 440 / 144 = 3.05. So if diesel were pure decane (which it isn't) then burning 1kg of diesel would produce 3kg of CO2. Since diesel contains lighter alkanes in higher proportions to the heavier ones, the ratio is less than 3 nad may change from diesel to diesel depending on the exact mix.
Just some stuff to add (in case any of you felt like suffering). In a REAL diesel engine, the contents of the exhaust are:

CO2
CO
CH4
H2
N2 -- Typically 80% or greater of the exhaust gas by volume as you'd expect.
NOx
O2
Aldehydes (formaldehyde usually) <--the really stinky stuff, though not really too noticeable till it's over 20-ish p.p.m...but I have a bad nose. The admirals can probably detect it sooner. Thankfully, it's usually less than 5 p.p.m. in modern engines with properly refined fuel.

Then of course soot/smoke (free carbon), and water vapor. Occasionally you may also run into some poorly refined product that has some sulfur in it, so naturally you'll also find some sulfur oxides.

All engines are different, between running conditions, loads, throttle position, EGR, combustion chamber temp...etc etc. A lot of things can go on. Typically when an engine is running WoT with better than a 15.5:1 Air-Fuel ratio you can expect CO2 to be 8-14% of the exhaust gas by volume. (calculated on a dry basis)

SO...if you cool cats really wanna see how much CO2 you're making, run your engine WoT, figure out the volumetric flow rate of your exhaust, the density of CO2 at your current temp/pres (probably 1atm since you should be at sea level ) and your rate of fuel consumption...Assume 14% CO2 to be safe and you have it.

Ref. I found that seems to back (hopefully) what I said. I'll read it later to make sure I'm not an idiot or have a poor memory.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...00722-0019.pdf

edit: These scientists have a better nose than I do also
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Old 11-05-2010, 06:11   #93
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Unfortunately you are (myself included)

Decane = 10*12 + 22*1 = 142 and not 144 as originally posted. Grrr.... Still, nobody noticed and it makes very little difference so if I don't mention it...


No problemo. just a little mix of nuclear physics and some fluid dynamics...

4H -> He + 25MeV - H20 + (temp < dev point) = great weather

in other words, sunshine, no rain, fog or heavy cloud = good weather.

Feeling the science love...and also slightly relevant. If memory serves, on a bright and sunny day at the equator sunlight is ~1.36 kW/m2 (8.5e+15 MeV/s). Solar panel energy conversion rates make me sad, and that equation describes a lovely night sail.

This is my last nerd post for awhile I swear.
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Old 11-05-2010, 08:26   #94
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On my tombstone it shall be inscribed, OIL- MULE GOT HIS SHARE!

Now for some casual observations;

Most boats of all stripe spent over 90%+ of their time tied up at the pier, not under weigh, that being said, seems like living space and access is a very important aspect of boating. It is hard to grow old on a sailboat, unless a catamaran because of the steep steps needed to go down into the cave. Foot for food, as a general rule there is a lot more usable living space on a power boat.

Now as a boater for most of my 63 years, I have observed sailboaters that seem to power everywhere they go. I do not doubt that many of you here do not fit that description, but that is my observation.

I spoke to a sailor a few days ago that looked on my Mainship with envy as I looked on his 32 Valiant with envy. He had had the boat for a long time and I commented that i came very close to going with a sail boat. He replied, "You did exactly the right thing. We are trying to get from here (Tampa) to Pensacola and the wind has been right on our nose. It seems like it as that way most of the time anytime we are sailing. I wish we had a fuel efficient cruiser-trawler."

I did not have the $ for a George Bueller Diesel Duck but that is my dream boat. Gallon an hour @ 8 knots and long range. Easy to live aboard and so forth. Manufactures do not produce affordable full displacement trawlers, and there are not any to speak of out there older and used. My 34 Mainship was a close as I could come. She has 250 hp Cummins and I am hoping for 3-4 nmpg or so. At 9-10 knots expect to burn 3 gallons an hour and anything beyond that is gravy. She has a semi- displacement hull, pretty flat near the stern with a skeg and sharp deadrise the closer to the bow you go.

So there you have it, from my perspective. Last summer I made the decision to go with power after years of deliberation and so far I am not sorry. I have cold ac, adequate living space and no desire to intentionally test mother nature, but a boat seaworthy enough (hopefully) to bring me in if I get caught out there. This boat is called a "coastal cruiser" for a reason. She is perfect for island hopping and should have a safe 6 to 8 hundred mile range.

Now if I can just finish working on it and start using it.
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Old 11-05-2010, 09:26   #95
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Toxicology

It sometimes seems the that climate change gets trivialized and misunderstood. If it's global warming why did we have such a cold winter? How can CO2 be a polutant when we expire it and plants require it (nice rhyme eh)?

I listened to a toxicologist on the radio yesterday speaking with regards to the gulf of Mexico oil spill and she said, "Anything is toxic in sufficient quantities." She was afraid that dispersing the oil at depth may cause enormouse harm to creatures with no previous exposure to oil.

The planet, as I understand it, has reached a relative and cylical balance where an environment in which life can evolve and be sustained has occured. In time when events have increased the release of CO2 the planet has warmed. The earth's orbit does bring it closer to the sun and then farther away again in cycle that span millenia. The greenhouse effect of CO2 and other gases comes from the sun rays heating the earth and these gases reflecting the long wave length of heat back to earth in a heating cycle. When scientists examine Venus they think the explanation for its climate is found in this greenhouse effect. When CO2 and other greenhouse gases reach a certain level the effect becomes runaway. In other words the increasing temperatures cause more CO2 to be released.

Yes, plants use CO2. Happy plants except they don't neccessarily adapt to higher temperatures and therefore we could see a drastic reduction in plants. The oceans are the greatest carbon sink but the increase temperatures of the seas could see them releasing the carbon. Warmer seas mean more plankton which inturn means more plankton dying and more CO2 being released.

Get used to hearing the term tipping point. I think we will be hearing it a lot over the next decades. We can't stop living our lives but we can certainly live them with greater care.

I had intended to write a post saying that I have met some really nice motor boat folks, some who love being out in nature, all who love the sea but when the thread drifted so did I but it does need to be said.
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Old 11-05-2010, 09:59   #96
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4H -> He + 25MeV - H20 + (temp < dev point) = great weather

Thanks! Thats exactly what we got! 10 to 12 knots at 120 deg app and a nice straight course overnight will be in our new anchorage midday tomorrow


Wonderful!
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Old 12-05-2010, 05:37   #97
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Thanks! Thats exactly what we got! 10 to 12 knots at 120 deg app and a nice straight course overnight will be in our new anchorage midday tomorrow


Wonderful!
Happy to help! Any other weather you'd like me to arrange?
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Old 14-05-2010, 13:09   #98
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How did this go from "Are sailors cheap?" to science class?
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Old 14-05-2010, 13:30   #99
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How did this go from "Are sailors cheap?" to science class?
I am cheap.

I don't want to pay someone.

I must learn things others know.

Some of it includes science.

In fact compared to what most knew 100 years ago it is Rocket Science.

I am a rocket scientist, comparatively speaking..........
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Old 14-05-2010, 19:38   #100
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Talking

I traded a engine for my Chrysler C-22 sailed it last season with out a motor so the only gas was to the lake and back. Because channel sailing is much different then lake we have put a few hours on the 9.9hp motor on our Chrysler C-26. ( a very good deal) but can't seem to relax when its running.

I have one solar panel and have yet had to charge the battery that runs the cabin & navagation lights and the VHF radio. will be adding small cabin fan to help the 2 solar vents.


Just last week my buddy "Bob" tells me that gas cost to much to take his real fast ski boat out, that hes paying $400+ a month for so it just sets in the yard.

Knowing that not one of my motorboat friends took their boat out last year or this season yet makes me think cheap is the way to enjoy boating.

.
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Old 17-05-2010, 04:28   #101
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I am cheap.

I don't want to pay someone.
Why should you arrange things to make them as expensive as possible - that would just be silly. So "going cheap" makes perfect sense. It seems to me that spending money up front to reduce bigger costs later is just plain common sense.

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I must learn things others know.

Some of it includes science.

In fact compared to what most knew 100 years ago it is Rocket Science.

I am a rocket scientist, comparatively speaking..........
Trust me on this, rocket science is actually quite simple.
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Old 17-05-2010, 17:15   #102
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Old 18-05-2010, 03:03   #103
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OK - quick version. Preventative maintenance costs money, but post-accident maintenance will cost you more.
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Old 18-05-2010, 06:14   #104
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Sailboats require more maintenance that is safety related. A sailor that is safety conscious will learn how to do this work, because he might have to do it out on the water, away from hired help.

This in turn, might lead a sailor to just do the work himself to save money, time, or due to trust issues with the local repair facilities. To me, this is "frugal & self-sufficient" not "cheap". Cheap to me, implies cutting corners and deferring maintenance.

I have trust issues, and I don't like to spare the time it takes to transfer my boat to a repair facility and wait in their queue, so I do my own work. I have the money, and I don't mind spending it, but I abhor wasted time.

I have enjoyed becoming intimate with all of my boat's systems, and quirks. I think it'll make me safer if fecal matter makes contact with the oscillating air-flow device instead of wishing I had a rigger or marine mechanic onboard.
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Old 18-05-2010, 06:46   #105
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I have enjoyed becoming intimate with all of my boat's systems, and quirks. I think it'll make me safer if fecal matter makes contact with the oscillating air-flow device instead of wishing I had a rigger or marine mechanic onboard.
In days of yore, people had to start of the bottom of an organisation and work their way to the top so that they had a thorough understanding of what went on and why. Even sons who stood to inherit the family firm had to work their way up. The rationale was obvious.

If you are trusting your life (or at least your comfort) to a boat, it is only common sense to manage to understand as much as possible about that boat.

As to your point about the difference between "cheap" and "frugal", it's a fair point.
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