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Old 19-04-2015, 08:56   #61
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
At the last count I have 9 different boating certifications. This in a country that doesn't require any form of license.

BUT. What gets mixed up is the value of structured learning , and the resulting certification. ( leaving aside country specific licensing ). There is significant advantage in structured learning and then allying that learning with practical experience.

The certification is somewhat irrelevant.

This is my biggest argument against compulsory certification as to changes the dynamic from learning to passing an exam

Dave
The experience, skills and knowledge that is required for you to pass the examination as well has the nature of the examination is what is important.

A certification is only a paper that attests that you have some skills and knowledge that corresponds to that certification and that may be needed if you need a mandatory licence, or needed to continue developing your skills on more advanced courses (more qualification).

If the examination is not serious it can be a fraudulent certification, if the qualifications that it certifies is not enough or irrelevant for the the job one is expected to do with that qualification then it is not the Certificate the problem but the standards of the qualification.
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Old 19-04-2015, 08:58   #62
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
RC,
I'm sure chartering in Canada isn't high on your list of places to charter, but for Canada the only recognised certification for commercial boat rides is that issued by Transport Canada.

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We weren't talking commercial but recreational.
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Old 19-04-2015, 09:02   #63
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Sailing qualifications usefulness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
The experience, skills and knowledge that is required for you to pass the examination as well has the nature of the examination is what is important.

A certification is only a paper that attests that you have some skills and knowledge that corresponds to that certification and that may be needed if you need a mandatory licence, or needed to continue developing your skills on more advanced courses (more qualification).

If the examination is not serious it can be a fraudulent certification, if the qualifications that it certifies is not enough or irrelevant for the the job one is expected to do with that qualification then it is not the Certificate the problem but the standards of the qualification.

As a former instructor I disagree completely.

The value is the learning process , not the exam. Many people for example do the YM shore based courses. A small fraction go on to do the actual on water practical exams. But simply having attended the courses they know more then before they started.

As for standards that's a whole different area. States have totally different perspectives on what comprises a minimum standard.

The issue is to learn something, the exam and paper are merely validators.

Dave


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Old 19-04-2015, 09:23   #64
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
RC,
I'm sure chartering in Canada isn't high on your list of places to charter, but for Canada the only recognised certification for commercial boat rides is that issued by Transport Canada.
I don't know if you are meaning the licence to operate a commercial boat on Canada or to charter a boat on Canada. Regarding foreigners sailing on their own yachts on Canadian waters they don't need any licence or certificate for 45 days (that's odd) and after that they have to own an operator card or equivalent that meets the requirements of their state or country.

It does not say what happens if the country, like UK, has not a mandatory boat licence but ICC is not legally accepted in Canada.

Competency of Operators of Pleasure Craft Regulations
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Old 19-04-2015, 09:40   #65
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
As a former instructor I disagree completely.

The value is the learning process , not the exam. Many people for example do the YM shore based courses. A small fraction go on to do the actual on water practical exams. But simply having attended the courses they know more then before they started.

As for standards that's a whole different area. States have totally different perspectives on what comprises a minimum standard.

The issue is to learn something, the exam and paper are merely validators.

Dave
Without saying what you are disagreeing it is hard to argument. The process of qualification and the certification of the qualification are the same for any subject, being it a Engineering certificate, a pilot certificate or a skippers certificate.

What matter is the qualification and the qualification is all you need to learn to perform a given task. The qualification standards can be adequate or not for doing the task, the examination (that leads to certification) can be adequate or not to access if the standard needed qualification is obtained ...and that's it.

A qualification (what one has to know) can be not enough (the standards) to perform a given task and if not the problem is a qualification with not the needed standards of quality.

The examinations that lead to the certification (if approved) can be not sufficiently demanding (practical and theory) to warrant that the student really has the needed qualification as defined by the standards and in that case the problem is with the examination.

A certification should attest that someone has the minimum knowledge and skills (qualification) to perform a given task as define by standards.
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Old 19-04-2015, 09:41   #66
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I don't know if you are meaning the licence to operate a commercial boat on Canada or to charter a boat on Canada. Regarding foreigners sailing on their own yachts on Canadian waters they don't need any licence or certificate for 45 days (that's odd) and after that they have to own an operator card or equivalent that meets the requirements of their state or country.

It does not say what happens if the country, like UK, has not a mandatory boat licence but ICC is not legally accepted in Canada.

Competency of Operators of Pleasure Craft Regulations
The only recognised licensing for commercial purposes are those issued by TC.

Chartering a boat for personal use isn't commercial use. If you want to work as a charter skipper for hire, you need Canadian Certification.

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Old 19-04-2015, 10:27   #67
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
The only recognised licensing for commercial purposes are those issued by TC.

Chartering a boat for personal use isn't commercial use. If you want to work as a charter skipper for hire, you need Canadian Certification.
Sorry, I thought you were talking about chartering a boat.

For what I can see for to be a skipper of charter a boat that takes paying passengers the boat has to be licensed by Canada government, and that's normal but for operating there are international agreements like the STCW that are subscribed by Canada and that will allow Canadian owners of Canadian professional sailing licenses to work and to sail boats of other countries that subscribed the same agreements and vice versa.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafet...tional-247.htm

But I confess that I did not understood what was the minimum certificate required. Do you know?
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Old 19-04-2015, 10:40   #68
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

If I understand the question correctly you are asking the minimum requirement to work as a charter captain in Canada?
If less than 15 tons and carrying fewer than 12 passengers and operating on a near coastal class 2 voyage (within 100 miles of safe refuge and not more than 25 miles off shore) the minimum requirement is an SVOP (Small Vessel Operator Proficiency).

Crewed charters between 15-60 tons is doable in sheltered waters (within 2' of safe refuge) with a Limited Master under 60.

To sail in Coastal waters over 15 tons, things start to get little unrealistic for the average guy, because at that point you are looking at a Master 150 Domestic which is about 1 year of college. Personal certification aside, it also becomes much more difficult for the vessel to be compliant in this voyage class.

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Old 19-04-2015, 10:57   #69
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
As a former instructor I disagree completely.

The value is the learning process , not the exam. Many people for example do the YM shore based courses. A small fraction go on to do the actual on water practical exams. But simply having attended the courses they know more then before they started.

As for standards that's a whole different area. States have totally different perspectives on what comprises a minimum standard.

The issue is to learn something, the exam and paper are merely validators.

Dave


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I find that quite odd. Theres a big difference between sitting in a classroom or on a yacht attending classes, and actually passing an exam on the subject. Sure you will learn something in a YM class, but how will you know if you got it right without an exam. Everyone learns in different ways, but I'm sure you have failed students on exams before which has led to them studying more till they understand and, get it right...
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Old 19-04-2015, 11:17   #70
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
If I understand the question correctly you are asking the minimum requirement to work as a charter captain in Canada?
If less than 15 tons and carrying fewer than 12 passengers and operating on a near coastal class 2 voyage (within 100 miles of safe refuge and not more than 25 miles off shore) the minimum requirement is an SVOP (Small Vessel Operator Proficiency).

Crewed charters between 15-60 tons is doable in sheltered waters (within 2' of safe refuge) with a Limited Master under 60.

To sail in Coastal waters over 15 tons, things start to get little unrealistic for the average guy, because at that point you are looking at a Master 150 Domestic which is about 1 year of college. Personal certification aside, it also becomes much more difficult for the vessel to be compliant in this voyage class...
So, no kidding on Canada regarding professional licences

I searched a little more regarding equivalencies:

"Canada does not issue certificates or certificates of equivalence to holders of certification from other administrations. However, if you are a Canadian citizen or permanent resident of Canada and apply at a local office of Marine Safety, an examiner at that site, can determine where you fit in Canada's system. In general, seafarers holding recognized certificates that are valid for use at sea, will see their qualifications and experience recognized toward the applicable Canadian certificate."

Questions Frequently Asked Regarding: Certification and Training - Transport Canada

Glad to see that Canada did not follow in what regards accepting as professionals skippers that are only lightly qualified even if with a pompous certificate name. For Instance US and UK recognize as suitable professional licence the IYT Master of Yachts 200 Tons (Offshore) certificate from the International Yacht Training. They demand that a candidate has 3000nm experience (who hasn't) and you will take the course in 17 days :

"A 7-day theory, shore based course.
A 5 days at sea on a yacht either power or sail
A 5 day STCW Basic Training course consisting of Fire Fighting, Sea Survival, First Aid and Personal Safety and Social Responsibilities"
Business & Maritime Law

IYT & RYA | Credentials and Differences | Yachting & Boating courses | Utila Bay Islands Honduras | GoPro Utila

That is one of the fastest professional courses I have ever heard about for become professional in anything
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Old 19-04-2015, 11:33   #71
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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So, no kidding on Canada regarding professional licences

I searched a little more regarding equivalencies:

"Canada does not issue certificates or certificates of equivalence to holders of certification from other administrations. However, if you are a Canadian citizen or permanent resident of Canada and apply at a local office of Marine Safety, an examiner at that site, can determine where you fit in Canada's system. In general, seafarers holding recognized certificates that are valid for use at sea, will see their qualifications and experience recognized toward the applicable Canadian certificate."

Questions Frequently Asked Regarding: Certification and Training - Transport Canada

Glad to see that Canada did not follow in what regards professional skippers that are only lightly qualified even if with a pompous certificate name. For Intance US and UK recognize as suitable professional licence the IYT Master of Yachts 200 Tons (Offshore) certificate from the International Yacht Training. They demand that a candidate has 3000nm experience (who hasn't) and you will take the course in 17 days :

"A 7-day theory, shore based course.
A 5 days at sea on a yacht either power or sail
A 5 day STCW Basic Training course consisting of Fire Fighting, Sea Survival, First Aid and Personal Safety and Social Responsibilities"
Business & Maritime Law

IYT & RYA | Credentials and Differences | Yachting & Boating courses | Utila Bay Islands Honduras | GoPro Utila

That is one of the fastest professional courses I have ever heard about for become professional in anything
You are absolutely correct. Canada doesn't mess around when it comes to certification of seafarers.

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Old 20-04-2015, 16:09   #72
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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Out of curiosity, at what ASA level would you feel comfortable sailing into most countries and not being asked to leave due to lack of qualifications? Are they looking for the first two or three ASA classes or would they be looking for something more in the range of Advanced Coastal or Passagemaking? Or maybe even more advanced courses such as a USCG Captain/Master course? I'm not asking so much about what it takes to keep you safe out there, just wondering about what they are looking for in some of the more restrictive ports.

To answer this question, ASA now offers the International Competency certificate that is apparently recognized in greece, and even turkey. To qualify you need to achieve ASA 104 certificate, then you just ask for the international ticket if you want it.


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Old 20-04-2015, 16:26   #73
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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Originally Posted by monte View Post
I find that quite odd. Theres a big difference between sitting in a classroom or on a yacht attending classes, and actually passing an exam on the subject. Sure you will learn something in a YM class, but how will you know if you got it right without an exam. Everyone learns in different ways, but I'm sure you have failed students on exams before which has led to them studying more till they understand and, get it right...

It's a leisure cert for a hobby. That's all. Attendance is voluntary and that's better then no attendance at all


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Old 20-04-2015, 16:32   #74
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Without saying what you are disagreeing it is hard to argument. The process of qualification and the certification of the qualification are the same for any subject, being it a Engineering certificate, a pilot certificate or a skippers certificate.

What matter is the qualification and the qualification is all you need to learn to perform a given task. The qualification standards can be adequate or not for doing the task, the examination (that leads to certification) can be adequate or not to access if the standard needed qualification is obtained ...and that's it.

A qualification (what one has to know) can be not enough (the standards) to perform a given task and if not the problem is a qualification with not the needed standards of quality.

The examinations that lead to the certification (if approved) can be not sufficiently demanding (practical and theory) to warrant that the student really has the needed qualification as defined by the standards and in that case the problem is with the examination.

A certification should attest that someone has the minimum knowledge and skills (qualification) to perform a given task as define by standards.

I am not talking about professional qualifications for commercial operation. I am talking about
people doing courses to advance their learning in what is a hobby.

This would include the likes of RYA , ASA and others " certification "
Dave


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Old 20-04-2015, 17:02   #75
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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I paid almost $4000 for a competent crew course which included four days on a small sail boat. Very little on the curriculum was included. No vhf, no engine, no sea safety, no sailmanship.

Yes, that's damn expensive for a little piece of paper that tells people I've done a Competent Crew course. What can I do with it? I believe I can crew on one of the smaller sydney to Hobart.
If a school affiliated with any certification entity (RYA, ASA, ...) is not teaching to standard then please report them to the parent agency. This kind of poor quality instruction is bad for everyone...the student, the parent entity, and the industry.
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