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Old 18-04-2015, 22:20   #46
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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Originally Posted by conachair View Post
Perhaps your choice of wording might not be the best here, commonly in day to day speech qualification and certification are synonymous in English..

No it's not. Qualification precedes certification. There are similarities but they are by no means synonymous. You can also obtain certification without qualifications

With that definition, having a sailing qualification (like an ICC) may or may not "mean having the necessary skill, experience and knowledge to do it well and safely."
Your second point I agree with.
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Old 19-04-2015, 00:31   #47
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

I paid $4000 for my day skipper theory/practical here in Dubai. To me it was worth every dime. It gave me a chance to learn some new information without being dependent on my husband to teach me. I learned things that he didn't know and some things that he was rusty on. He conveniently travelled around exam time so I really proved to myself that I could do it alone if I needed to. A great confidence booster. The certificate made chartering on vacation a breeze. And I intend to go on for my costal skipper in the fall.


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Old 19-04-2015, 00:37   #48
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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Originally Posted by brookiesailor View Post
I paid $4000 for my day skipper theory/practical here in Dubai. To me it was worth every dime. It gave me a chance to learn some new information without being dependent on my husband to teach me. I learned things that he didn't know and some things that he was rusty on. He conveniently travelled around exam time so I really proved to myself that I could do it alone if I needed to. A great confidence booster. The certificate made chartering on vacation a breeze. And I intend to go on for my costal skipper in the fall.


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Perhaps a Day Skipper is what I should have spent the money on in he first place. I did not have my own boat back then so I just went with what they recommended.

I wonder whether those places that require 'qualifications' would accept a Coxswains? Does anyone know? (Not that I have any plans to charter overseas). A speed boat license is all that is needed in the Whitsundays to dry hire.
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Old 19-04-2015, 01:13   #49
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
ok, that's one good point for being qualified. I didn't know that.
All I suggested was not worth while was a Competent Crew course which cost me nearly $4000 for four days. I didn't do the Day Skippers course and would not presume to judge something I havnt done.
I've also done Elements Ship Shore Safety, which is the sea safety survival and part of an upgrade to my Coxswains. Very useful.
I was referring to another earlier comment, not yours, re: the Day Skipper.

$4000 seems pretty steep. I paid considerably less than that for the spinnaker course, day skipper theory and practical. Pacific Sailing School at Rushcutters Bay.
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Old 19-04-2015, 01:16   #50
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Perhaps a Day Skipper is what I should have spent the money on in he first place. I did not have my own boat back then so I just went with what they recommended.

I wonder whether those places that require 'qualifications' would accept a Coxswains? Does anyone know? (Not that I have any plans to charter overseas). A speed boat license is all that is needed in the Whitsundays to dry hire.
I argued against starting at Competent Crew because I had some experience. After doing the spinnaker course and some lessons though I probably wouldn't have had the necessary experience to do the Day Skipper straight up. Not for the practical. The theory was easy but then I already knew navigation from my time in the Army.
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Old 19-04-2015, 01:26   #51
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

Struth, $4k?... I'll do it for $2k and provide lunch.....
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Old 19-04-2015, 04:47   #52
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
I think you are over thinking this. But thanks.
I understand you don't mean no harm but you should not post a quote from me and in the quote insert your comments. It is very confusing and it seems I am saying things I did not.

Regarding the difference between to be qualified to and to and certified to, you have just to go to the dictionary (some posts behind I did that).

The confusion in a more popular language (and less correct) comes from the fact that today for doing most jobs that need a qualification you need an official certification.

That's funny that they are the ones that don't see the need of a mandatory certification (licence) for sailing that seem to have more difficulty in seeing clearly the difference

The reason they say a licence (that corresponds to a certification) is not needed for sailing is that sailors can learn what they need to sail safely in a responsible way alone (meaning that they can be qualified to sail and navigate that way) and that there is no need to subject them to an official examination to prove that they have the required skills and knowledge (because sailing is not dangerous).

The successful passage of that examination would provide them with a certification and would attest they have the required minimum knowledge and skills that corresponds to the standards of that qualification. Regarding sailing schools and official licences in some countries (that correspond to mandatory certifications) in what concerns sailing there are several certifications that corresponds to different qualifications, for example, to be qualified to be a day Skipper, to be qualified to be a Coastal skipper, to be qualified to be an Offshore Skipper and so on.
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Old 19-04-2015, 05:00   #53
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I understand you don't mean no harm but you should not post a quote from me and in the quote insert your comments. It is very confusing and it seems I am saying things I did not.

Regarding the difference between to be qualified to and to and certified to, you have just to go to the dictionary (some posts behind I did that).

The confusion in a more popular language (and less correct) comes from the fact that today for doing most jobs that need a qualification you need an official certification.

That's funny that they are the ones that don't see the need of a mandatory certification (licence) for sailing that seem to have more difficulty in seeing clearly the difference

The reason they say a licence (that corresponds to a certification) is not needed for sailing is that sailors can learn what they need to sail safely in a responsible way alone (meaning that they can be qualified to sail and navigate that way) and that there is no need to subject them to an official examination to prove that they have the required skills and knowledge (because sailing is not dangerous).

The successful passage of that examination would provide them with a certification and would attest they have the required minimum knowledge and skills that corresponds to the standards of that qualification. Regarding sailing schools and official licences in some countries (that correspond to mandatory certifications) in what concerns sailing there are several certifications that corresponds to different qualifications, for example, to be qualified to be a crew member, to be qualified to be a Coastal skipper, to be qualified to be an Offshore Skipper and so on.
I can't see how it's confusing? You can see the 'bold' I was doing it in. I don't think anyone would confuse it with being your comments. That's being a bit paranoid I think. in any case, I was only doing it like that (as many on CF do) because I'm responding on an iPad and I can then respond to each point you have posted.

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Old 19-04-2015, 05:16   #54
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
I can't see how it's confusing? You can see the 'bold' I was doing it in. I don't think anyone would confuse it with being your comments. That's being a bit paranoid I think. in any case, I was only doing it like that (as many on CF do) because I'm responding on an iPad and I can then respond to each point you have posted.

You have a rectangle and on top of it it says regarding the content : quote: Originally Posted by Polux. Being in Bold can be originally me using bold.

Again, I know you mean no harm but that is not the right way to do it. If you want to do it that way you should at least retire the quote: Originally Posted by Polux, not use the quote system (for what is not only a quote) and reply using not bold but a different color to mark clearly the difference between a quote and a reply.
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Old 19-04-2015, 05:23   #55
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Sailing qualifications usefulness

Good points on qualification as opposed to certification Polux. You are of course correct and it's quite common in English to ask 'what qualifications do you have?', when we actually should be asking what certifications do you have. Either way it's good to make a point of difference. Nicely explained as well. I've seen your point of having different level students in one class and can confirm this is not a good idea. Often RYA courses will take 6 students out for training. Two might be doing component crew, two doing skipper courses and two doing YM. The component crew tend to be left as rail meat while the more advanced levels dominate the discussions with topics well above their skill level. Maybe this can work in some situations with some teachers but as you pointed out, it's not an ideal situation.
RC, in my experience the coxswains certificate is accepted in any countries requiring ICC certification but that may vary depending on the particular situation ( own yacht or chartered, country of registration, nationality of skipper etc) The best way to handle formalities in those countries is to have all your paperwork neatly in order, in a clear plastic pocket type folder or similar, with copies of all ships documents, passports, crew lists, certifications, insurance, vessel safety equipment etc. Officials always appreciate an organised skipper and for some, handing them a copy that saves them walking 5m to the copy machine is like giving them a Christmas present!
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Old 19-04-2015, 05:27   #56
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

Quote:
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You have a rectangle and on top of it it says regarding the content : quote: Originally Posted by Polux. Being in Bold can be originally me using bold.

ok. How's this way

Again, I know you mean no harm but that is not the right way to do it. If you want to do it that way you should at least retire the quote: Originally Posted by Polux, not use the quote system (for what is not only a quote) and reply using not bold but a different color to mark clearly the difference between a quote and a reply.
Does this work better?
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Old 19-04-2015, 05:29   #57
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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Originally Posted by monte View Post
Good points on qualification as opposed to certification Polux. You are of course correct and it's quite common in English to ask 'what qualifications do you have?', when we actually should be asking what certifications do you have. Either way it's good to make a point of difference. Nicely explained as well. I've seen your point of having different level students in one class and can confirm this is not a good idea. Often RYA courses will take 6 students out for training. Two might be doing component crew, two doing skipper courses and two doing YM. The component crew tend to be left as rail meat while the more advanced levels dominate the discussions with topics well above their skill level. Maybe this can work in some situations with some teachers but as you pointed out, it's not an ideal situation.

RC, in my experience the coxswains certificate is accepted in any countries requiring ICC certification but that may vary depending on the particular situation ( own yacht or chartered, country of registration, nationality of skipper etc) The best way to handle formalities in those countries is to have all your paperwork neatly in order, in a clear plastic pocket type folder or similar, with copies of all ships documents, passports, crew lists, certifications, insurance, vessel safety equipment etc. Officials always appreciate an organised skipper and for some, handing them a copy that saves them walking 5m to the copy machine is like giving them a Christmas present!
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Old 19-04-2015, 05:53   #58
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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Does this work better?
Yes
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Old 19-04-2015, 06:40   #59
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

At the last count I have 9 different boating certifications. This in a country that doesn't require any form of license.

BUT. What gets mixed up is the value of structured learning , and the resulting certification. ( leaving aside country specific licensing ). There is significant advantage in structured learning and then allying that learning with practical experience.

The certification is somewhat irrelevant.

This is my biggest argument against compulsory certification as to changes the dynamic from learning to passing an exam

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Old 19-04-2015, 08:50   #60
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

RC,
I'm sure chartering in Canada isn't high on your list of places to charter, but for Canada the only recognised certification for commercial boat rides is that issued by Transport Canada.

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