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Old 17-04-2015, 08:23   #31
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

I started sailing with zero prior experience and given I wanted to charter boats on the West Coast the only viable option I had was to take the certification courses. It took 3-4 months but the alternative of trying to gain enough experience to build a resume hitching rides on other people's boats might have taken 3-4 years. Not to mention the lack of mandated study of navigation, rules of the road, safety, etc.

I'm an advocate of the course work but I understand there is more than one way to skin a cat.

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Old 17-04-2015, 08:24   #32
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

I don't understand your point: are you really asking if there is any advantage to someone being qualified to sail a sailing boat?

Being qualified in what regards sailing means having the necessary skill, experience, or knowledge to sail safely.

I can see some advantages on that
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Old 18-04-2015, 02:54   #33
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

Who are you direction your question at Pollux?
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Old 18-04-2015, 03:15   #34
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

If you want to charter outside of Australia then you really need your ICC - you can get this after completing the RYA Day Skipper. Some of the boats I've been looking at chartering in Thailand also want you to have completed your coastal skipper.

I did the day skipper last year after some helming and spinnaker courses. You need experience prior to doing the Day Skipper and to get qualified you have to do a 5 day theory course and pass the test then do a 5 day practical assessment and pass that too. Anyone suggesting that's not worthwhile doesn't know much about it, in my opinion. I found it excellent and very worthwhile. I'll be doing my coastal skipper but first, I'll do the sea safety and survival, VHF and diesel engine course. I understand they're de facto pre-req's for crewing on a Sydney to Hobart boat - which is a goal of mine
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Old 18-04-2015, 03:56   #35
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Who are you direction your question at Pollux?
Could we have that again in English?
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Old 18-04-2015, 04:25   #36
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

In Canada there is no requirements for licencing on the federal level to operate a pleasure craft. Recently the provincial governments (Ontario for sure) have started to implement an online testing and pleasure boat licence for small craft over 9.9hp. This happened 3 years ago and all that was required was to undertake a short test which took about 10 minutes to complete.

since then my wife and I have sailed over 15,000 miles in many countries and have yet to be asked for any certifications of which we have none. as we are currently in East Timor and heading for Australia, I am glad to hear that they also do not require any special licence.

On a side note, we did manage to easily obtain the 10 million liability and wreck/pollution insurance now required for Australian waters for what I would say was a very good price and we were never asked for any certification at all.
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Old 18-04-2015, 06:03   #37
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Who are you direction your question at Pollux?
To the OP (that is you) that made the original question.

I was trying to look at it in a broad way: It makes no sense asking if qualifications for sailing are useful. They are necessary to sail and navigate safely.
Being qualified to do something means having the necessary skill, experience and knowledge to do it well and safely.

There is many ways one can qualify himself in what regards sailing, one of them is alone without outside help, learning by himself. In what regards that sailing and navigation are not different then any other human activity that needs skill and knowledge to be performed.

Let's compare it with a basic one that all of us have: Reading

You can learn alone with nobody teaching you. It will take you a long, long time and effort.

You can have a friend that knows how to read and that will try to help you: Way faster and easier.

You can have a personal specialized teacher that has a big experience in teaching how to read that has been training for teaching that and dominates processes and methods that will make the learning much easier and faster.

You can go to a school. A personal specialized teacher is the best way but only at the reach of very rich people so society created schools that is a way to make education less expensive and at the reach of all. Not really as good as having a personal teacher but if the school is a good one, not far. There is also some advantages in learning together with a small group of people with the same level of knowledge and skills.

Regarding to learn reading alone, in fact it is so hard that before school was mandatory a large part of the population never managed to learn how to read.

At this point it is useful to have a view of another subject related with the social learning process, related with schools, that many times is confused with qualifications that is certification.

You can have a qualification without any certification. Sometimes society sees the need to demand a qualification to be mandatory and certified just as a safety warranty for other citizens or as a warranty (to others) that someone has the basic skills to perform a given function (Doctors, Engineers, Ship Captains, Airline Pilots and so on). For performing other functions, where also special skills and knowledge is also needed, a society does not normally consider necessary a mandatory certification (artists, musicians and so on).

But even when society does not demand a mandatory certification to perform a given function if you choose to learn the skills needed through a school certification is needed anyway. For learning a complex subject like how to sail and navigate or how to read using a school you cannot mix beginners with advanced students. For forming an effective learning class you need to join persons with approximately the same level of knowledge and acquired skills to have a common knowledge and skills basis from where the teacher can improve. That works like that for learning how to read, to learn mathematics or to learn how to sail or navigate.

Modern societies are huge and interlinked so certificates from a given school, state or country are given many times an equivalency to another certificates from other schools, states or countries in a way that one can continue using schools and learning independently where one is living, so certification is a basic toll to allow that mobility and is basic for any schooling system even if the certification is not socially mandatory to perform a function.

Off course if you learn by yourself alone or have a private specialized teacher (and certification is not mandatory) you don't need certification but learning alone is a painful ineffective way that for some would not be sufficient to acquire all the needed skills and knowledge for sailing and navigate safely and doing that with a private teacher is so expensive that it is not at the reach of many.

Therefore qualification is needed to sail and navigate. Certificates are needed if a qualification is mandatory or if a school is used for acquire the necessary skills and Knowledge (the needed qualification) to sail and navigate.
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Old 18-04-2015, 06:56   #38
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post

Formal sailing education is still in most places a luxury and an expensive luxury at that. I guess I do question whether it is necessary at all.

But you are correct, my question was about the usefulness of 'accreditation'.
I'm curious what you and other members think is expensive. I thought the courses I took were very reasonably priced.

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Old 18-04-2015, 08:58   #39
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Being qualified to do something means having the necessary skill, experience and knowledge to do it well and safely.
Perhaps your choice of wording might not be the best here, commonly in day to day speech qualification and certification are synonymous in English..

Quote:
qualification

Line breaks: qualiŠfi|caŠtion
Pronunciation: /ˌkwɒlɪfɪˈkeɪʃ(ə)n/
Definition of qualification in English:
noun

1A pass of an examination or an official completion of a course, especially one conferring status as a recognized practitioner of a profession or activity:
I left school at 15 with no qualifications
With that definition, having a sailing qualification (like an ICC) may or may not "mean having the necessary skill, experience and knowledge to do it well and safely."
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Old 18-04-2015, 13:16   #40
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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Originally Posted by conachair View Post
Perhaps your choice of wording might not be the best here, commonly in day to day speech qualification and certification are synonymous in English....
Well, not in correct English:

qualification: "a special skill or type of experience or knowledge that makes someone suitable to do a particular job or activity"

Qualification - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

qualification :Capacity, knowledge, or skill that matches or suits an occasion, or makes someone eligible for a duty...

What is qualification? definition and meaning

qualification: A quality, ability, or accomplishment that makes a person suitable for a particular position or task.

qualification - definition of qualification by The Free Dictionary


Certification: the act of certifying or state of being certified

certification - definition of certification by The Free Dictionary

Certification: the act of certifying; the state of being certified

Certification - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

"Certification: Formal procedure by which an accredited or authorized person or agency assesses and verifies (and attests in writing by issuing a certificate) the attributes, characteristics, quality, qualification, or status of individuals or organizations, goods or services, procedures or processes, or events or situations, in accordance with established requirements or standards."

What is certification? definition and meaning

Some skippers have qualifications to sail and navigate their sailing boats everywhere in almost all situations, some of them have no certification that attests that they are qualified to do that.

A certification is a document that attests that someone has the qualification to do a certain job or to drive a given vehicle (namely a sailingboat) in a given set of conditions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by conachair View Post
With that definition, having a sailing qualification (like an ICC) may or may not "mean having the necessary skill, experience and knowledge to do it well and safely."
A kind of a fraudulent certification, one that does not really attest that someone has the needed qualification to sail a sailboat (or certificate any other thing) is an entirely different subject and has to do with the certification process not being up to do what it was supposed to do: certificate a qualification needed to perform adequately a given job.

That should be a case for the courts, if the certification is obviously inadequate to certificate the needed qualifications and if those qualifications are required to be certified by law
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Old 18-04-2015, 15:07   #41
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

I would think there would be value in the existence of certified sailing courses existing in that it makes shopping easier for consumer, they know certainstandards have been met and therefore the course and instructors mjust have a certain minimum knowledge level. I see value in a certified course from that perspective.

In addition, in Canada taking a certified course will give credit towards the mandatory Pleasure Craft Operators Card, which isn't hard to get, but non the less you must have it.

I know my insurance company didn't ask even ask whether I had any certified yachting course. They asked what experience I had and based on my experience didn't give me any geographical restrictions to my insurance (except the usual ice navigation, and hurricane season stuff).

I did take several CYA courses when I was a teenager, as well as several CSTA courses. But I've never had the need to advertise that information to an insurer, regulator or sailing club. For that reason, I don't think a training certificate is of much value to any one but the consumer.

Most of these yachting certificates a fairly introductory in nature, rarely are they over 80 hours in length.

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Old 18-04-2015, 20:52   #42
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Well, not in correct English:
:
Why cares. Is English your first language? Your use of the word qualification is not the same as everyone else's.
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Old 18-04-2015, 22:07   #43
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
To the OP (that is you) that made the original question.

Thanks, I wasn't sure as this thread was from last year and it suddenly starts up. In ernest it would seem.

I was trying to look at it in a broad way: It makes no sense asking if qualifications for sailing are useful. They are necessary to sail and navigate safely. Well, that's exactly what I'm raising and I guess I'm disputing. Most cruisers I've come across have been crcruising around the world without any qualifications what so ever.

Being qualified to do something means having the necessary skill, experience and knowledge to do it well and safely. Ummm again, I'm not certain if agree with this. Everyone would know of highly qualified persons in their fields and yet they are incompetent. I don't think qualifications are a guarantee of anything.

There is many ways one can qualify himself in what regards sailing, one of them is alone without outside help, learning by himself. In what regards that sailing and navigation are not different then any other human activity that needs skill and knowledge to be performed. But that's not a qualification, not by any means. I agree with you that some highly proficient people have no formal training, but that's not qualification.

Let's compare it with a basic one that all of us have: Reading

You can learn alone with nobody teaching you. It will take you a long, long time and effort.

You can have a friend that knows how to read and that will try to help you: Way faster and easier.

You can have a personal specialized teacher that has a big experience in teaching how to read that has been training for teaching that and dominates processes and methods that will make the learning much easier and faster.

You can go to a school. A personal specialized teacher is the best way but only at the reach of very rich people so society created schools that is a way to make education less expensive and at the reach of all. Not really as good as having a personal teacher but if the school is a good one, not far. There is also some advantages in learning together with a small group of people with the same level of knowledge and skills.

Regarding to learn reading alone, in fact it is so hard that before school was mandatory a large part of the population never managed to learn how to read.

At this point it is useful to have a view of another subject related with the social learning process, related with schools, that many times is confused with qualifications that is certification. Yes, learning in a group is beneficial. I honk that's all you are saying here?

You can have a qualification without any certification. you have my interestSometimes society sees the need to demand a qualification to be mandatory and certified just as a safety warranty for other citizens or as a warranty (to others) that someone has the basic skills to perform a given function (Doctors, Engineers, Ship Captains, Airline Pilots and so on). For performing other functions, where also special skills and knowledge is also needed, a society does not normally consider necessary a mandatory certification (artists, musicians and so on). I think you are trying too hard with the two terms. They are different, but only slightly. Usually you can become certified after you have received a qualification. But this is all being a little pedantic I think.

But even when society does not demand a mandatory certification to perform a given function if you choose to learn the skills needed through a school certification is needed anyway. For learning a complex subject like how to sail and navigate or how to read using a school you cannot mix beginners with advanced students. For forming an effective learning class you need to join persons with approximately the same level of knowledge and acquired skills to have a common knowledge and skills basis from where the teacher can improve. That works like that for learning how to read, to learn mathematics or to learn how to sail or navigate.

Modern societies are huge and interlinked so certificates from a given school, state or country are given many times an equivalency to another certificates from other schools, states or countries in a way that one can continue using schools and learning independently where one is living, so certification is a basic toll to allow that mobility and is basic for any schooling system even if the certification is not socially mandatory to perform a function.

Off course if you learn by yourself alone or have a private specialized teacher (and certification is not mandatory) you don't need certification but learning alone is a painful ineffective way that for some would not be sufficient to acquire all the needed skills and knowledge for sailing and navigate safely and doing that with a private teacher is so expensive that it is not at the reach of many.

Therefore qualification is needed to sail and navigate. No no no. Completely disagree. As I previously said, many people competently sail the world without any qualifications at all. Certificates are needed if a qualification is mandatory or if a school is used for acquire the necessary skills and Knowledge (the needed qualification) to sail and navigate.
I think you are over thinking this. But thanks.
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Old 18-04-2015, 22:12   #44
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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If you want to charter outside of Australia then you really need your ICC - you can get this after completing the RYA Day Skipper. Some of the boats I've been looking at chartering in Thailand also want you to have completed your coastal skipper.

I did the day skipper last year after some helming and spinnaker courses. You need experience prior to doing the Day Skipper and to get qualified you have to do a 5 day theory course and pass the test then do a 5 day practical assessment and pass that too. Anyone suggesting that's not worthwhile doesn't know much about it, in my opinion. I found it excellent and very worthwhile. I'll be doing my coastal skipper but first, I'll do the sea safety and survival, VHF and diesel engine course. I understand they're de facto pre-req's for crewing on a Sydney to Hobart boat - which is a goal of mine
ok, that's one good point for being qualified. I didn't know that.
All I suggested was not worth while was a Competent Crew course which cost me nearly $4000 for four days. I didn't do the Day Skippers course and would not presume to judge something I havnt done.
I've also done Elements Ship Shore Safety, which is the sea safety survival and part of an upgrade to my Coxswains. Very useful.
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Old 18-04-2015, 22:16   #45
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Re: Sailing qualifications usefulness

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I'm curious what you and other members think is expensive. I thought the courses I took were very reasonably priced.

I paid almost $4000 for a competent crew course which included four days on a small sail boat. Very little on the curriculum was included. No vhf, no engine, no sea safety, no sailmanship.

Yes, that's damn expensive for a little piece of paper that tells people I've done a Competent Crew course. What can I do with it? I believe I can crew on one of the smaller sydney to Hobart.
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