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Old 21-08-2015, 18:58   #31
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Re: Sailing presentation and statistics on women sailboat owners

Although technically my wife is "co-owner" of our boat, she has never taken our boat out without me, and likely never will. Realistically, she falls into the "passenger" catagory.

I have recently known 3 lady boat owners. All were selling their boats because of lost spouses. One in particular, held onto her boat for over 10 years, and relied on me to move it spring and fall...she never took the helm of her own boat.

However, my lovely daughter, all of 15 years old, is 3rd mate and watch officer aboard a local tall ship sail training vessel. in addition, she "owns" her own laser, and sails that whenever possible (ok, I paid for it, but it her's). When she wants her own keelboat one day, I will be happy to help her buy that too. I'd love to get her a tanzer22, but she is just so busy with her other sailing adventures. She would like to attend "sail afloat" for her last year of high school...but at $50k tuition I just don't see that happening. Still, she has my adoration and respect. And she is IMHO rare...all her sailing peers are male.
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Old 22-08-2015, 00:13   #32
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Re: Sailing presentation and statistics on women sailboat owners

Can't answer for the US since I live in europe.

I suspect that rather than talk about female ownership you should look at female skippering, meaning the amount of women who have the skillset to skipper the boat.

My wife and I are co-owners and co-skippers (we are both yachtmaster ocean). Most boats we see over here (Baltic) have a male skipper and a female "fender-bender" meaning the woman, takes care of the docklines and fenders.

When we bought our first boat we mad ethe decision that we would alternate days as skipper. that way we both gained experience docking, undocking, determining sailtrim and skippering in inclement weather. We were very strict about this the first few years - now we are more relaxed sincne we are both quite capable.

Male sailors generally don't look at females as skippers and most females do not insist on taking the skipper role (descrimination works both ways).

Recently we were being shown around an aquaintances boat and he was busy explaining various technical aspects (all addressed to me) when my wife broke in with a question. He looked a little embarassed and then said

"I'm sorry - I forgot you sail"

Menaing he had forgotten that my wife was perfectly competent to sail our or his boat.

I told my wife later that that was probably the biggest compliment he could give her - acknowledging that she was a sailor and therefore an equal member of the group.

One thing you need to tell your audience - as females they must make the decision to become skippers and then they have to insist on their right to be skippers - otherwise they will end as "fender-benders"
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Old 22-08-2015, 00:30   #33
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Re: Sailing presentation and statistics on women sailboat owners

Great stories, all. Thank you everyone I can't respond to each one, but there are many things that I have taken note of and will be in the presentation. Our club, the Half Moon Bay Yacht Club, is probably unique among yacht clubs in that we have a fleet of Cal 20s, C15s, and Lasers for members to sail any time, along with some other new boat (FJs?) for our high school team, which is just kicking off, I believe. As club members, we can become "owners/sailors" of these boats, which means that we do all the sanding, prepping, painting and fiberglass work that needs to be done each winter after a hard season of racing and sailing. This way, we gain experience on the rigging and upkeep of the boats, and then on race day, we have first dibs on "our boat." Another woman joined shortly after I did, and she and I became sponsors to one of two boats that had only women sponsors. Our monthly women-skippers-only sail usually has 5-6 boats and 12-15 people out sailing. Last month, I took 7 women out on the bay in my boat in winds gusting up to 35 knots. We certainly were reefed, but they had to take the wheel while I handled the sails. This was huge for them, as most of them had never been on the bay or in winds like that. What this means is that many women are seeing this sailing thing as something they are definitely able to do. It is an amazing transformation to hear someone at first say, "I can't do this, take the wheel," to "that was really amazing; I can't believe I did that!" So yes, care of the boat, learning the basics, gaining confidence, taking charge; these are all things that are learned, step-wise, but once mastered, there's just no looking back. I only wish there were more opportunities like this out there!!

And as for statistics...there will lots of fun and inspiring stories, but I'm a biologist. I just can't make one important point without having valid data to back it up
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Old 22-08-2015, 01:35   #34
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Re: Sailing presentation and statistics on women sailboat owners

In polling for women available to jump on my not-so-bad 54' cutter.... say no more than 15% of prospects declare or show interest

Cold, moving, heeling, far from ashore, inexperience...are the concerns, in a 30-50 yo bracket
I feel it was much better in the 80s

Not to say.... ah... you are not dependable,you'll move away, you a hobo, no house ashore!? Fantastic!
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Old 22-08-2015, 02:27   #35
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Re: Sailing presentation and statistics on women sailboat owners

This might sound a bit harsh but when it comes to sailing... women need to earn the respect of the skipper and/ or other crew..... It is not a right, nor should it be to a different, less demanding level of commitment as a new male sailor would be judged by

From unplugging and cleaning a fouled head in a seaway to standing your watch afterwards when you have been puking your guts out from cleaning the head there should be no double standards.

Otherwise... don't expect to be viewed as equal.
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Old 22-08-2015, 06:10   #36
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Re: Sailing presentation and statistics on women sailboat owners

Over here in my little corner of Europe I would put the stats at 1 in 100!! (I am ignoring paper only co ownership).....that's simply because women tend to enjoy other things more. And have more sense?!

From personal observation how a woman gets treated very much depends on how they act - if acting like the skipper will be treated like one, if dangling a bit of rope off the bow with a vague hope of something happening will be treated like crew (no matter that she may be a co owner)......but that the same as for men.
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Old 22-08-2015, 08:00   #37
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Re: Sailing presentation and statistics on women sailboat owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talelajo View Post
I have owned 2 sailboats solo, inc. my current one, and co-owned 3 other boats. I don't know about actual ownership, but I see approx 50% boats being used (vs non-moving liveaboards) operated solely by men, another 40% operated by couples and approx. 10% operated solely by women.
When I bought my first sailboat from another woman, she told me that the notion that boats need to be operated hierarchically is nonsense, she has crewed on many a boat w/females only who operated cooperatively. I have since found this to be true, and have never been yelled at by another woman on a boat. I have had men yell at me on my boat - go figure. This issue factored heavily in my recent divorce.
So, guys - we'd love to go sailing with you, but not if you're going to boss/blame/yell.
Oh yes and to all the captain Bligh types and Jekyl and Hyde types that change into schizophrenic nut cases at sea having been so nice and inviting on shore who have sometimes made my life a misery @ sea where I am normally the most happy.F u all!!!LOL.
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Old 22-08-2015, 08:48   #38
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Re: Sailing presentation and statistics on women sailboat owners

on MY boat, the male must earn the respect he THINKS he deserves.
when the guy who comes aboard deliberately creates a fail situation, i cannot respect em.
it seems that once someone comes aboard to assist in the effecting of repairs, that male alleged helper immediately loses his ability to hear and discern instructions much less exhibit ability to follow simple instructions.
there is a basic fault in males that causes a problem in communication, as the male decides he knows more than the female owner of the boat.
sadly, this is a biiig problem.
there is no reason for males to behave in such manner.
not all females like racing.
not all females enjoy the starkness and spartanness of a racing boat. many of us enjoy the cruising boats and heay displacement kind of open ocean sailing wherein the boat is actually usable for something other than sailing, at the same time the boat is sailing, which is exactly opposed to the racing situation.
there IS an ability to be able to sail a boat and enjoy it, without racing.
there is fun on open ocean without constant fighting the conditions and without discomfort.
most males forget this and go balls out for competition.
fuggeddaboudid.
there is a lot more to sailing than mere speed and making a schedule.
thank the gods i was taught correctly, without competition and without discomfort to sail a proper sailing craft when i was most small.
we enjoyed the repairing, the correction of our own mistakes, even to hauling a heavy old man up the mast when we accomplished a fail and befoulment of rig while horsing around at ages 7 and 8.
yes we learned everything and in a most enjoyable manner, with attached responsibilities and laws of the sea all incorporated in the lessons we were given by our merchant marine uncle.
and so.....unfortunately not everyone is able to be that lucky in youth.
if you seriously want a female n board, learn what that female enjoys and work with her. you may be surprised at her intelligence, whiich you managed to overlook or ignore.
if the woman is th boat owner, do NOT exert your alleged knowledge and force onto her your ideals and desires regarding HER boat.
you wil not be invited back.
not ever. you may even be written up and publicized in the new group in fb regarding crap crew...
or in the secret women's groups, or ..even in public.
yes women own boats. hell, i even owned 2 of em at same time, with a history of having owned more than one in my life--more like 10, only counting mother ships, not dinks or tenders.
omygods the world didnt come to an end.
and then i took my 40 ft boat the hell outta san diego to live a good life without the discrimmination and scorn i found in san diego towards female owners of cruising ketches..lol what a fake n fony place that is.
there is more resect for a female owner here in mexico than i ever experienced in usa.
the numbers do not bespeak the realities of actual ownership nor of realities found out here in real life situations.

"Oh yes and to all the captain Bligh types and Jekyl and Hyde types that change into schizophrenic nut cases at sea having been so nice and inviting on shore who have sometimes made my life a misery @ sea where I am normally the most happy.F u all!!!LOL" describes every male who has come voluntarily to my boat in the disguise of offering me assistance. these males ar not desirable crew nor are they appropriate for assisting in the repairing of a boat owned by a female.
and as david dore states, yes behaviour is important.
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Old 22-08-2015, 10:07   #39
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Re: Sailing presentation and statistics on women sailboat owners

By education, by the times.... old viale idee to yell... a dott of hierarchical privilege, or anarchist attitude !?

Times have changed... many more impolite people, but only a few in a yell-mode on.

:-)

PS
After the MCARTHURS and the AUTISSIERS.... simply hinting at any presumed female factor weakness... sounds miserably dumb, to me
I'd like to cruise with a solo-women crew (gates are open)
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Old 22-08-2015, 16:40   #40
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Re: Sailing presentation and statistics on women sailboat owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
it seems that once someone comes aboard to assist in the effecting of repairs, that male alleged helper immediately loses his ability to hear and discern instructions much less exhibit ability to follow simple instructions.
there is a basic fault in males that causes a problem in communication, as the male decides he knows more than the female owner of the boat.
sadly, this is a biiig problem.
Hi Zeehag, you've got a point and the statement you made has a lot of truth in it. Certainly it's not that extreme where I am (Europe), and I was delighted about the change in attitude once I got to Portugal - or was it just that my knowledge and understanding about mechanical and technical stuff had grown tremendously by then? I don't know. Suddenly the pieces I asked to be made in workshops turned out to be exactly as the drawings and templates I made and they even welcomed me to help with the task and use their workshops and tools whenever I needed to.

In opposition to that, in Spain, things were very different. I don't think because they wanted to dominate and take things over, but because they wanted to please me and were convinced that they thought they had found a more perfect solution for the problem I was in the process of solving. Some of their ideas were certainly brilliant for a different purpose, but not for a boat and not for the sea. So, we had to start all over again and this took a lot of patience for both sides to get it right.

Many years ago, the moment my ex-husband lost his patience with changing the impeller on my raw-water-pump and had a tantrum, throwing the thing across the cabin, damaging woodwork and the impeller-shaft, I had enough. Nobody ever was allowed to touch any component on my boat, not even with the best intentions. I checked my whole boat for anything I might not be able to sort out on my own and changed matters. Nothing apart from the masts I can't lift on my own, I've got chainblocks if I need to get my engine out etc.

And if I need a hand (e.g. to tighten a nut situated behind a bulkhead where my arms are not long enough and I can't really fix the spanner to something), there are people around who are happy to give me a hand for just that without arguing about this or anything else.

For some reason, since a few years, I didn't get into any kind of trouble or discussions any more. At the moment I'm re-building my boat, right now it's about replacing my deck. Plenty of sailors come though here, sometimes we talk. "You mean you are re-painting your deck?"-"No, I'm replacing it."-"You mean new treadmaster or teak on the deck?"-"No, some new deckbeams, the supporting-bits, and a whole new deck." Some of them come over to have a look. And when they stand inside the empty hull and look through the deckbeams to the open sky they are shocked and say "so, you were not joking ... this is for real ..." After that, people who offered to give me a hand, boy or girl, they just did exactly what I asked them to do and even volunteer to do more.

If I was a clever person I would have to say yes. But I'm not a clever person. I prefer to continue on my own and make sure everything turns out to be exactly as I want it to be. Takes longer of course, but I can rely on it in a bad sea and won't get my life in danger too soon with homemade disasters.

Anyway, Zeehag, don't get too cross about the boys or girls trying their best to help you. As long as it's only to give you a hand for a task everybody else would be happy to have a second pair of hands nobody will volunteer to take over the business. Have it all prepared and there will be no arguments. Simple as that.

Cheers & fair winds x
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Old 22-08-2015, 17:31   #41
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Re: Sailing presentation and statistics on women sailboat owners

Great post Dody and terrific advice to all boat owners..... "Own and Control your situation"
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Old 22-08-2015, 18:04   #42
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Re: Sailing presentation and statistics on women sailboat owners

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Sadly, damn few sailors of either gender meet this rigorous definition. What you describe is not required to be a typical blat owner/operator. Sure, it is good to have all those skill sets and knowledge, but not a necessity. A few hours spent reading posts by boat owners here on CF will demonstrate this fact!
Hi Jim,

I agree insofar, most sailors use their boats for weekends just to have some fun in the bay and I'm very happy about them enjoying it. In a close-to-shore, well organized area you can get away with almost anything.

But, the moment you head off, you've got to be able to deal with your problems yourself. Whichever assistance you need is not just around the corner and alongside within 5 minutes. You crossed over to Noumea, so you know about these lovely open spaces.

Considering this, I don't think my definition should be called "rigorous". Boy or girl it does not matter, we've all got the same head on our shoulders. You've just got to be prepared to get it all sorted. The more experience, the less points you miss out in preparation and the less surprises are waiting for you out there - especially at times where you absolutely can't have any more surprises because you are in survival mode already. Even with a perfect timing and the best forecasts this can happen to all of us.

Change of subject: I love to see and meet liveaboard-couples who have found harmony in their cruising-life like you did. Sharing the experiences and adventures and at the same time working together as a team. It's great!

Unfortunately sometimes it does not work like that. And like in a relationship, it's not only one or the other, it's both.

The worst for me are the feminists, especially when they haven't got a clue (sorry if this might sound arrogant from a girl's mouth). But not much better are boys the moment they can't admit that they've lost control of the situation. Or, if they think they have to make a point without reason, just to impress.

Over the years I've seen by far too many sailing-couples ending up in failure, which is heartbreaking. Many of these failures could have been avoided with a bit more understanding and a helping hand from both sides.

Cheers & fair winds
Dody
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Old 22-08-2015, 18:17   #43
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Re: Sailing presentation and statistics on women sailboat owners

To be fair, some folks are just blowhards. The other day my husband was on deck and everything I heard seemed kind of off. I moved closer to the hatch to try to figure out who was talking at him and heard a neighbor insisting that he needed a drill with a built in level to make the proper hole, best investment ever, etc.. My husband was too polite to ask him to hold the boat level while he drilled.
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Old 25-08-2015, 09:07   #44
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Re: Sailing presentation and statistics on women sailboat owners

You might find a great book by Suzanne Gieseman to be a resource to recommend in your talk. It's called "It's Your Boat Too."
See http://www.amazon.com/Its-Your-Boat-...sap_bc?ie=UTF8
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Old 25-08-2015, 09:58   #45
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Re: Sailing presentation and statistics on women sailboat owners

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You might find a great book by Suzanne Gieseman to be a resource to recommend in your talk. It's called "It's Your Boat Too."
See http://www.amazon.com/Its-Your-Boat-...sap_bc?ie=UTF8
Hey, thanks for that! Not sure if I can read it in time for the presentation this Saturday, but it is definitely something I will buy for the club members to share.

I really enjoy hearing everyone's perspective and their own stories, especially Hamburking's daughter learning to sail on the tall ship and having her own Laser! Starting young is the best way to gain confidence in any type of endeavor, but that's not to say you're doomed to a landlubber's life as an older person just starting out I like to break down these conceptions and help people expand their comfort zones within reason and safety. Everyone had to step on a boat that first time. Knowledge is learned, but respect is earned; both take time. It also takes a calm, patient, and giving instructor/mentor/spouse/friend/family member to create an environment in which a new sailor wannabe can feel confident while building their skills.
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