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Old 26-10-2010, 17:18   #16
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Originally Posted by agennai View Post
do you use a pole as a whisher when you sail wing to wing ?when you use drifter how can you hoist it, have you a bow sprit and a roller?
Yes, sailing wind and wing (genoa and main) we use the spin or whisker pole to hold out the genoa. For that matter, when we fly twin genoas we use two poles, or a pole and a block at the end of the boom.

It is possible to sail wing and wing without a pole, but you are limited to a very small range of downwind angle, and it is still hard to keep the headsail filled (especially if there is any swell that is slewing your boat around).

I don't have a drifter, but do have an asymmetrical spinnaker which is almost the same thing. You attach the tack line to a bowsprit if you have one (we don't), you can use the anchor roller, or put a block on the anchor platform, or use an "ATN Tacker" (look it up). I've used all of those methods with some success, but eventually fabricated a stainless fairlead that I attach to the bow pulpit. The pulpit needs to be very strong for this to work well, as there can be a lot of force on the tack line.

With any of these methods you need to be sure the tack line doesn't chafe on the surrounding hardware. The first time I ran it through the anchor roller it ripped off my bow bi-color light when I tacked.

My asym, and some drifters, have a snuffer (mine is from ATN). Recently some of these are being rigged with furling gear, which may make the tack attachment more challenging. As I said before, make sure you play with this stuff before heading out.
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Old 26-10-2010, 17:34   #17
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thanks...sound good but if i got right when i roll (reef) the jib the pole doesn't go forward because is clipped to the sheet (not the clew!!!); i have to move forward the pole loosing the backguy and tensioning the foreguy!
correct?????
When I am poling out the genoa, I don't use a separate afterguy, I just clip the pole to the jibsheet. I usually rig a foreguy and topping lift on the pole too, but these aren't 100% necessary and I may skip them if I'm in a hurry and there's enough wind to hold the pole up without the topping lift.

When furling, because of the angles between the tack, clew, and sheet block on the rail, the pole naturally positions itself against the clew (usually). When you ease the sheet and start furling, the pole moves forward, at least most of the way. When the sail is furled, the clew is on the headstay and the pole is sticking several feet forward, so the sheet needs some slack. Try it at the dock with a the furled sail (unfurl it if the wind is really light) and it will make sense.

When flying a symmetrical spinnaker I use an afterguy, foreguy, and topping lift. The spinnaker clews have the afterguys and sheets, and the pole clips to the afterguy.
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Old 26-10-2010, 18:24   #18
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When I am poling out the genoa, I don't use a separate afterguy, I just clip the pole to the jibsheet.
I have seen the pole slowly chew thru the sheet in many cases. It is invisible around the cans but more pronounced on any extended passage.

A short length of rope run between the clew and stop-tied to the sheet can be used so that the pole is clicked onto this rope. If there is any chafe, you simply replace the short piece.

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Old 26-10-2010, 19:08   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agennai View Post
do you use a pole as a whisher when you sail wing to wing ?
Yes. The pole attaches to the active sheet for the jib or drifter if the main is up, or it attaches to the active sheet of the jib to 'windward' if you have both a jib and a drifter raised and no main, the drifter sheets to near the end of the main boom, unless you have a second pole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agennai View Post
when you use drifter how can you hoist it, have you a bow sprit and a roller?
thks
You do not have to have a sprit.

The drifter is only going to be up in light to moderate weather, 0-12kt wind speed, and it is very light, even for a 40' boat it will pack into a 5gal (19l) bucket so raising and lowering it loose will be at worst a moderate problem when raised loose, ie with no hanks.

If you have a roller jib then you have to deal with the interference caused by the rolled sail in the airflow. In general I believe you would want the disturbance on the windward side of the drifter.

Going upwind without a sprit you could tack the drifter down in front of the pullpit which would chafe some on the sail, or if the hoist is a little short use a pendant so the chafe is on the pendant.

On a close or beam reach tack to the leeward side bow cleat. You to change sides every tack or gybe but offshore that isn't very often.

On a broad reach, hard to say where to tack. Have to see how the sail sets.

If the headsail is hanked on, have a second tack shackle and just raise the drifter over the doused jib.
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Old 26-10-2010, 20:35   #20
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I have seen the pole slowly chew thru the sheet in many cases. It is invisible around the cans but more pronounced on any extended passage.

A short length of rope run between the clew and stop-tied to the sheet can be used so that the pole is clicked onto this rope. If there is any chafe, you simply replace the short piece.
This is good advice. My spinnaker guys have leather where the pole clips on. The amount of wear on the sheet will depend somewhat on the condition of the pole end -- if it's smooth the wear may not be too bad. I've gone many days at a stretch with the pole clipped to the sheet (several weeks cumulative on a set of sheets), and the wear wasn't excessive. It's definitely something to watch for though.
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Old 26-10-2010, 22:44   #21
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Since watching "Water World", I've thought about how a kite sail might work. Not a Genoa, but a real kite sail. Anyone have experience with these?
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Old 26-10-2010, 22:54   #22
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Since watching "Water World", I've thought about how a kite sail might work. Not a Genoa, but a real kite sail. Anyone have experience with these?
Thank you! Hee hee hee :-). . . . you tickled me. Something about the image of kite sails and someone with a signature that says "I do all my own stunts" just works for me. Hope I didn't offend - I think your adorable.
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Old 26-10-2010, 23:31   #23
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Since watching "Water World", I've thought about how a kite sail might work. Not a Genoa, but a real kite sail. Anyone have experience with these?
Not exactly a kite, but similar in design.

Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat: A Guide ... - Google Books

Page 159 in the preview describes/shows a Twistle Yard.

See, I did take you seriously. I really think it is and interesting idea.
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Old 27-10-2010, 00:53   #24
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It is an interesting idea. Put a pulley on the cranse iron, launch the kite take a couple of turns around the anchor windlass, feed it out and tie it off when it's high enough. Keep an ax handy in case a quick course change is necessary. Laugh, scoffers. When the forty foot Thai Clipper flies past at 15kts being pulled along by it's bow sprit you'll believe.
Adorable aquarian, you have my complete attention. Almost. (feel free to pm me). Hey, can't blame a guy for trying.
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Old 27-10-2010, 01:15   #25
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Vintageray, I think you read my mind.
They really do use them on freighters though. Of course, freighters generally weigh a heck of a lot more than sailboats - but . . .
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Old 27-10-2010, 01:46   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post

I don't have a drifter, but do have an asymmetrical spinnaker which is almost the same thing. You attach the tack line to a bowsprit if you have one (we don't), you can use the anchor roller, or put a block on the anchor platform, or use an "ATN Tacker" (look it up). I've used all of those methods with some success, but eventually fabricated a stainless fairlead that I attach to the bow pulpit. The pulpit needs to be very strong for this to work well, as there can be a lot of force on the tack line.
ATN taccker sound very usefull and handly the only questions is: how can avoid the chafe on the rolled jib?
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Old 27-10-2010, 07:10   #27
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Since watching "Water World", I've thought about how a kite sail might work. Not a Genoa, but a real kite sail. Anyone have experience with these?
There was an Atlantic attempt in a kite powered boat.

You must notice that to get those surfer speeds the kite is manouvered within a 'strong' zone, usually in a zig-zag manner. Not likely on a cruising boat.

There were also trials on AC boats. I worked in aloft where such kites were occasionally made.

There is also the other type - which is deployed from cargo ships platforms. You can google it out I guess.

I think the cargo kite could be used on a cruising boat. Interesting though where the attachment point would be on a sailing boat. (?)

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Old 27-10-2010, 07:38   #28
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See "twizzle rig"
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Old 27-10-2010, 11:11   #29
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See "twizzle rig"
The Twizzle Rig or Twistle Rig for Downwind Ocean Sailing
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Old 27-10-2010, 11:17   #30
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ATN taccker sound very usefull and handly the only questions is: how can avoid the chafe on the rolled jib?
The inside of the tacker is very smooth high density plastic, and it is about one foot wide so the force is distributed over a broad area. I did not notice any chafe after using one for several days in the tradewinds. Note that some people think the tacker generates excessive side-loading on the furling gear -- again, no problem in my experience.
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