safety

[SailingFan]

This reminds me of a situation I once encountered, where a friend who lived next door was gifted (by myself) a very nice 1858 Remington .44 black powder revolver (a replica, I kept the real one for myself). I also gave him a pound of black powder, and about 200 cast balls and about the same number of cast lead conical slugs, and a tin of 100 primers. I taught him how to shoot the thing, clean it, and maintain it. I taught him about downrange safety. I stressed that he should treat it as any other similar device, and that it could easily hurt or kill someone if improperly used.

About a month later, I hear a distant "boom" and something comes through the wall of my house, bounces off my office door, and rolls against my foot. I look up to see a tiny hole in the wall, and look down and retrieve the perfectly formed, lead cast conical that I instantly recognized. I waited a couple minutes to figure out what to do.

After thinking a bit, I called my friend over, and told him I had a present for him. Since my presents usually involved some form of interesting gadgetry like this, he came right over. I held my hand in the air over his palm, and dropped the bullet into his hand, then pointed at my wall. He looked up, looked at my head with his blood draining from his face, and we never had to discuss it again. His place was over 600 feet from mine. Yes, a black powder pistol still has some snot.

When I comment about safety, I know some think I am excessive, and a review of other threads here will demonstrate that some think I go too far when talking about personal safety.

However, I really dislike reading about some fool who made a really stupid mistake, got killed, and then everyone oohs and aahs about how unlucky the STUPID person who dies was when he or she did what was done, stupidly. Usually there is a bit of ridiculous disregard for safety protocols that have been well established, and it is a case of the person thinking that they know better or have better skill than the noob that needs safety glasses or some such.

Then there are those who have the attitude that any moron behind a desk can preach about safety, but somehow that person is less qualified to discuss it because they are at some point in their life involved in discussing the concept with other people (whom often, I may add, rely on the protections offered by the organization's insurance assets when something goes wrong, but gripe when they have to use the equipment).

Then of course, that person behind the desk is usually the one that is required to go to the hospital room of the injured employee when the people who laughed at his use of safety lines either died or are sitting at home in the bar, having a great time while the injured's family is wondering how they will be covering the rent for the next 8 months.

Do as you like, but remember, laws are revised because people do stupid things with the ones already on the books, and rarely do those revisions make for less draconian laws. If someone is unsafe on your boat, you are the one getting the blame when insurance comes to call. Same goes for the US Coast Guard or the various forms of Marine Patrol forces that police inland waters and coastal areas of the US. I have no knowledge of how they handle it elsewhere. And in the end, if you have no problem telling the kids that they lost their dad because a) he was stupid, b) he was careless, or c) because you did not think that his life was worth you two getting into an argument, then sitting by works, provided those actions don't get additional people into trouble.

But don't be surprised when you look and the people you hang out with have fewer fingers or eyes that work, they walk with a limp, or they reduce in number alive faster than the general population, because birds of a feather is more than a saying. It applies in safety too because the unsafe ones often kill the safe ones as well as themselves, sometimes even more readily.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Experienced sailors drown too.

Recent drowning death of a sailing instructor, with 40 years of experience, giving a lesson on a small sailboat, in a lake in the Dallas area. The boat flipped. He was not wearing a PFD. Rescue boat from the local sailing club was a few minutes away. Divers recovered his body later.
"He was taking a new member of the club out on the lake to verify her sailing skills when the boat flipped.."

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/miss...hite-rock-lake

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

Experienced sailors drown too.

Recent drowning death of a sailing instructor, with 40 years of experience, giving a lesson on a small sailboat, in a lake in the Dallas area. The boat flipped. He was not wearing a PFD. Rescue boat from the local sailing club was a few minutes away. Divers recovered his body later.
"He was taking a new member of the club out on the lake to verify her sailing skills when the boat flipped.."

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/miss...hite-rock-lake

80 years old, "Callicoatte was communicating clearly and waiting for the rescue boat to come near when he went under suddenly, "

Pure speculation, but I certainly wouldn't rule out the proximate cause as medical (heart?) problem and not drowning.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by StuM

80 years old, "Callicoatte was communicating clearly and waiting for the rescue boat to come near when he went under suddenly, "

Pure speculation, but I certainly wouldn't rule out the proximate cause as medical (heart?) problem and not drowning.

But if he was wearing a proper life jacket he would be floating face up even after a heart attack. Without the jacket be sank. Which situation made surviving the heart attack more likely?

[SailingFan]

Originally Posted by fxykty

But if he was wearing a proper life jacket he would be floating face up even after a heart attack. Without the jacket be sank. Which situation made surviving the heart attack more likely?

Yup... what they said...

[Pelagic]

One can always point out in hindsight a safety issue that would have changed the outcome....obviously if a sailboat can flip, the crew should be wearing pfds.

But I can also describe a scenario where the wearing of a pfd can kill you.....
My rule of thumb is to simply avoid or quickly get rid of Darwin candidates.

[Taichungman]

Sounds like you already dealt with it in a polite way.
I quote You, "We mentioned safety rules to him but he ignored them." I would have probably ignored them also unless the skipper told me to either put one on or get off the boat.
I've crewed for a number of skippers in the Pacific and Atlantic and have never had one require a PFD be worn. We did know where they were located on board.

[Fence Man]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

Your boat, your rules. And it doesn't really matter if the life jacket is comfortable, or reasonable, or anything else. Your boat, your rules.

My wife's mother and father never wore seatbelts. First time they got in the car with me I told them they needed to buckle up. They balked. They argued. I told them we weren't leaving the driveway until they buckled up, and I did not really care if we sat there all day long. They got angry. I told them that I could live with them being angry at me. What I could NOT live with would be if we were in an accident, and they were killed or seriously injured, because they didn't have on their seatbelts.

They put on their belts, and we never argued about it again.

Your boat, your rules. It's as simple as that.

My FIL refused to wear a seat belt for the longest time. He simply won't be told what to do, and doesn't really care if he gets killed in the process. My reply to him was that I really didn't care if he got killed either, but I do care about my wife and daughter being in a crash with an unrestrained 175 lb projectile. He puts it on now when he's asked, and for the record, I really do care about him. I'd prefer that he lived a very long time.
I'll say it again.....Life jackets, seatbelts, and guns. If you need one and don't have it, you'll never need one again.

[MikeFergie]

As a child sailing a dinghy I flipped upside down and got stuck under the boat with the life jacket pushing me up against the floor. If I was not a water baby and took the time to open and swim out of my life jacket to outside the boat I would have drowned. In these scenarios life jackets are the pits !
To this day on dinghy I still use a life jacket but on big boats only at night or if I am single handing as autopilots don't stop !!

[MarkSF]

Simple rule : the boat doesn't leave the dock until everyone's wearing life jackets. Had one friend who didn't want to wear one - told him the boat wasn't leaving the dock until he did, and we could sit there all day. He put it on.

Also, I have three inflatables, and the rest are uncomfortable runabout vests. This encourages early arrival!

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by MikeFergie

In these scenarios life jackets are the pits!

Realize you are not doing this, but people often point to incidents like this as a justification for not wearing a life jacket. Same way that you will find people who point to the obscure accidents where a seatbelt actually causes greater injury, to justify not wearing one of them. These cases are extraordinarily rare exceptions to the rule. If you look at the statistics, you would have to be STUPID to conclude that you are better off not wearing a seatbelt in a car, and the same goes for life jackets on a boat.

That said, I readily admit that I do not wear a life jacket every moment that I am on a boat. I don't see a need for one EVERY MOMENT. If it is daylight, and I am in the cockpit with others there, I usually don't wear one. If we are anchored, I never wear one. If we are moving, and it is night, or I am on-deck alone, then I wear one.

[Cheechako]

It's the owner's call. I like people to bring their own life jacket of choice. Just dont invite him anymore if it bothers you. I rarely wear one, but if an owner wanted me to I would. Very seldom wore one racing either and did foredeck work.

[B00B00]

You cant really compare life jackets to seat belts. In a car you can crash for so many reasons and alot of them are out of the drivers control. Could be 1 slight missjudgemen from any one of the other drivers using the same road. Passengers have evem less or no co trol.of any situation in a car. Seat belt required 100% of the time full stop...
Sailing is quite different, a lot more of it is in your own hands and experienced guys should be able to make the call themself.
If i was on someones yacht and they forced me to wear a life hacket on a calm day I would never come back. After a lifetime at sea I have worked when I need one.
My general rule is that if im wearing wet weather gear, seaboots or any heavy clothing then life jacket required as swimming is near impossible. If im in teeshirt, shorts and barefeet then unless im going forward to do something tricky or the weather is pretty bad then i usually dont bother as i know how long I can tread water for and I also know how much easier it is to get back on board without a life jacket on...
Of course there are cases where you have people who think they know more than they actually do. I dont know the answer for that.

[thinwater]

Am I the only one that finds threads like this boring?

Wave the bloody shirt. Watch the folks salute. Like politics, without the new content, but just as full of false analogies.

Boring.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Am I the only one that finds threads like this boring?

Wave the bloody shirt. Watch the folks salute. Like politics, without the new content, but just as full of false analogies.

Boring.

Thank you for that insightful addition to this thread.

It might be argued that if you find a thread boring but persist in reading and commenting in it, them perhaps the problem lies a little closer to home.