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Old 16-02-2007, 02:09   #16
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Where does it end? Never, I guess. It just finds some measure of equilibrium. Don't ask (or accept) if you don't feel like you ought to, help if you want to, and don't feel guilty if you don't. It usually balances out. Feel free to offer an opinion, but don't disparage those who reach different conclusions. And go sailing every now and then.
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Old 16-02-2007, 02:54   #17
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I only saw one person on the SSCA site that stated he sent money(a small amount at that).On the net people can send you money from anywhere,help has to be local.I don't know what this guy sounds like in the flesh but he is rather smooth with the keyboard.To be a fly on the wall would be interesting.A lot of people on that site gave him advice and by his replies it sounds like he was in a time frame,which isn't a good way to be.Jay seeing that your not local to Brisbane how about ya send me some money and I'll take Joie out to dinner.We will E-Mail you our hardluck story latter.Mudnut.
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Old 16-02-2007, 05:19   #18
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Skip and Lydia posted great detail about the search for, acquisition of, and renovation of the Flying Pig. He has a lot of practice conveying stories in engaging fashion from that alone. In fact, those stories and the many great discussions around the options and alternatives that were explored on r.b.c. and other fora he posted on regularly over the last several years are probably why some of us -- whether we know Skip and Lydia personally or not -- have been so engaged in their plight as to post of their travail on the boards we frequent. We've lived through the renovation vicariously and feel connected. Skip didn't hop around the Internet asking for money -- some of those of us who have followed his story posted of their experience and others offered help.

I haven't seen any indications anywhere of anyone suggesting that one should feel guilty for choosing not to help, only protests.

There always seem to be plenty of folk around to tell others how they "should" or should not spend their own money.

Balanced against the enjoyment I have had over several years reading Skip's descriptions and participating in discussions, my small contribution to help them back on their feet is much cheaper than my cable bill or NPR contribution.
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Old 16-02-2007, 06:09   #19
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In an attempt to draw the attention away from the charity issue, may I suggest that we take a look some of the aspects of the grounding that might yield a discussion that we can all learn from.

For starters, in response to a question asked earlier in this thread, here is the wind data from Sombrero Key on February 5th (during the hours leading up to the grounding). Sombrero Key is less than 5 miles south of Marathon Key. Winds remained consistent from the NE and peaked at 1700 with sustained winds at 18 and a peak gust of 20.1 knots.

YYYY MM DD hh mm DIR SPD GDR GSP GTIME
2007 02 05 23 00 039 15.4 50 17.5 2213
2007 02 05 22 00 053 15.4 50 17.0 2157
2007 02 05 21 00 034 11.8 50 18.0 2024
2007 02 05 20 00 050 16.0 50 18.5 1953
2007 02 05 19 00 053 16.5 50 19.0 1857
2007 02 05 18 00 054 17.0 60 19.0 1702
2007 02 05 17 00 052 18.0 50 20.1 1653
2007 02 05 16 00 051 16.0 50 19.0 1544
2007 02 05 15 00 030 13.4 30 17.0 1410
2007 02 05 14 00 029 14.4 30 18.0 1330
2007 02 05 13 00 031 13.9 30 16.5 1202
2007 02 05 12 00 031 14.9 30 16.5 1156
2007 02 05 11 00 025 12.4 40 15.4 1002
2007 02 05 10 00 036 13.4 40 15.4 0906
2007 02 05 09 00 037 12.9 40 14.9 0857
2007 02 05 08 00 037 12.4 40 14.4 0757
2007 02 05 07 00 036 11.8 40 14.4 0623
2007 02 05 06 00 031 11.8 30 14.4 0510
2007 02 05 05 00 023 11.3 20 13.4 0423
2007 02 05 04 00 020 10.8 20 11.8 0356
2007 02 05 03 00 007 6.7 20 11.8 0217
2007 02 05 02 00 016 8.8 30 11.8 0124
2007 02 05 01 00 000 7.7 40 9.8 0025
2007 02 05 00 00 037 9.3 40 10.8 2330

DIR Ten-minute average wind direction
measurements in degrees clockwise
from true North.

SPD Ten-minute average wind speed values

GDR Direction, in degrees clockwise from
true North, of the GSP, reported at
the last hourly 10-minute segment.

GSP Maximum 5-second peak gust during
the measurement hour, reported at the
last hourly 10-minute segment.

GTIME The minute of the hour that the GSP
occurred, reported at the last hourly
10-minute segment
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Old 16-02-2007, 06:51   #20
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Do we have any information as to exactly where the grounding occurred? In one of Lydia's online log entries, she mentions Skip contracting a salvage boat in Big Pine Key (W - NW of Marathon). She also mentions the 25 mile distance to get Flying Pig to Marathon. A 25 mile radius off Marathon over toward Big Pine would put the grounding north of Spanish Banks, perhaps coming to rest (if one could call it that) in the area between Harbor Banks and Bullfrog Banks. If that was the case, they were well "off course." There's nothin' but thin water all around (and I suspect some pretty good bone fishing flats!).
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Old 16-02-2007, 06:59   #21
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Kevin,

In one of their posts, they said they grounded NW of the largest of the Content Keys.

IMHO, there's little doubt what happened. From their own accounts, the watchkeeper (Lydia) was "prone" and incapacitated with seasickness. Skip was sleeping below. They didn't get "blown off course"; the boat fetched up on a reef because of failure to keep a proper watch.

Further, I think they're lucky to have sustained as little damage to themselves and to their boat as they did. While there may be a few structural issues (tabbing, rudder, banged up keel, small amount of hull damage), the pics show a boat in not bad shape at all. It could have been a LOT worse.

These folks were in over their heads. They lacked recent experience (and, maybe, just plain experience), and they had insufficient crew aboard for the journey.

They certainly deserve our thoughts and best wishes. Anything beyond that has to be a personal decision.

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Old 16-02-2007, 07:10   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btrayfors
Kevin,
In one of their posts, they said they grounded NW of the largest of the Content Keys.
Wow. That puts them even further "of course" (to use their words) than I'd thought. Content Keys are almost 22 miles due west from Marathon!
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Old 16-02-2007, 07:49   #23
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After looking at some of the local knowledge that they'd received via online forums, one captain advised that they head for the marked channel coming into Marathon from the north, beginning at the Bullard Bank light. That light is 19 km east of where the Pig went aground. Could they have really been that far off? Or, perhaps did they mistake the advise to mean the Bullfrog Bank light, putting them 9 miles west of where they should have been. If they were indeed headed for Bullfrog Bank, they would likely have had a real challenge getting into Marathon without a marked channel through all those shoals.

If anyone is interested in taking a look at the area, here's the link to the NOAA's online chart.

NOAA Online Chart Viewer
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Old 16-02-2007, 08:05   #24
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Kevin,

Yeah. This is definitely not an area for a newbie to try to navigate at night in strong-ish winds.

According to your post, the wind was likely NE @ 12-20 knots. A wise sailor might have chosen to heave to on the offshore tack (starboard) and wait for daylight. There's plenty of water to the NNW.

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Old 16-02-2007, 14:27   #25
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I must have mis-read, or not completely read the account of where the grounding occurred ... I thought it was South of Marathon, near Sombrero, during the day time ... now I find out that they were North of the 7 mile bridge, at night. Skip was on the Boot Key Cruisers net this morning, and among the other things he had to say was that his insurance company had "totaled" the boat. I really, really don't know what to make of all this, as I said earlier, something just seem's fishy here.
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Old 16-02-2007, 14:34   #26
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Hey Bob - is that a live radio show ?
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Old 17-02-2007, 10:02   #27
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Raven...I went back and took my own look at that wind data you posted. From what I can see based on the definitions...wind speed is measured in meters per second in those tables. This effectively doubles the wind speeds (in knots) that they were in.
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Old 17-02-2007, 10:18   #28
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Whilst we can all sympathise with any one in trouble, can I suggest it might be best all around to confine the assistance to practical stuff -ie if in the area getting along and helping?

There are a lot of people out there getting buy with less assets than they guys have - and not expecting others to pay their way either.

If anyone got wrecked close to us, sure we'd chip in and help all we could - but the help would be given in man-time, advice, or even shouting them a meal as above, all IMHO more appropriate than refilling a cruising kitty or paying for someone elses repair work.

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Old 17-02-2007, 12:41   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camaraderie
Raven...I went back and took my own look at that wind data you posted. From what I can see based on the definitions...wind speed is measured in meters per second in those tables. This effectively doubles the wind speeds (in knots) that they were in.
Hmmm. You're right. Thanks for picking up on that.

Although the main data page for the buoy data expresses wind speeds in knots, the archives are in m/s (and not noted as such in the column headings). Additionally, the times shown on the buoy main page are shown in EST, while the times in the archive file are UTC.
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Old 17-02-2007, 12:59   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camaraderie
Raven...I went back and took my own look at that wind data you posted. From what I can see based on the definitions...wind speed is measured in meters per second in those tables. This effectively doubles the wind speeds (in knots) that they were in.
Here are those wind speeds that I'd posted earlier converted to knots, with a few additional hours of data added (taking the data up to 2200 EST on Feb 5):

YYYY MM DD hh mm DIR SPD(knots)
2007 02 06 03 00 025 26.0
2007 02 06 02 00 025 25.1
2007 02 06 01 00 020 27.0
2007 02 06 00 00 025 25.1
2007 02 05 23 00 039 29.9

2007 02 05 22 00 053 29.9
2007 02 05 21 00 034 22.9
2007 02 05 20 00 050 31.1
2007 02 05 19 00 053 32.0
2007 02 05 18 00 054 33.0
2007 02 05 17 00 052 35.0
2007 02 05 16 00 051 31.1
2007 02 05 15 00 030 26.0
2007 02 05 14 00 029 28.8
2007 02 05 13 00 031 27.0
2007 02 05 12 00 031 29.0
2007 02 05 11 00 025 24.1
2007 02 05 10 00 036 26.0
2007 02 05 09 00 037 25.1
2007 02 05 08 00 037 24.1
2007 02 05 07 00 036 22.9
2007 02 05 06 00 031 22.8
2007 02 05 05 00 023 22.0
2007 02 05 04 00 020 21.0
2007 02 05 03 00 007 13.0
2007 02 05 02 00 016 17.1
2007 02 05 01 00 000 15.0
2007 02 05 00 00 037 18.1
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