Rudder Failures

[Polux]

Originally Posted by minaret

After decades of boat building, and having attended a number of IBEX events, I have never heard anyone refer to any method of fiberglass construction as injection. This is because injection is a common method/terminology in plastics construction, which might lead to confusion.
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It seems you have been distracted. The i on the Jeanneau, like Jeanneau 36i refers not to infusion (that i not used on the boat) but regards the decks that are made by an injection process called " Deck Prisma Process® injected deck". We are talking about Jeanneau not any "exotic" boat.

Here on an old article (more then 10 years I think) regarding the building of the first series of A35 Archambaul describes the injection process they use on their decks:
Technology

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[minaret]

Originally Posted by Polux

It seems you have been distracted. The i on the Jeanneau, like Jeanneau 36i refers not to infusion (that i not used on the boat) but regards the decks that are made by an injection process called " Deck Prisma Process® injected deck". We are talking about Jeanneau not any "exotic" boat.

Here on an old article (more then 10 years I think) regarding the building of the first series of A35 Archambaul describes the injection process they use on their decks:
Technology

..

That is closed mold infusion. It is, by default, infusion if there is a fiber material "infused" by resin. Injection implies a closed mold which is simply injected with a plastic in liquid form. No fiber reinforcement. They are simply trying to be friendly to the lay person.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Polux

Jeanneau and Beneteau use not cored boats but a system of monolitic hull and Monolithic structural counter moulding laminated and bonded to the hull for strength instead of a cored hull.
Bavaria,Hanse and Delphia like for instance Oyster, use cored hulls above waterline and monolithic below.
Dehler, Salona uses fully cored hulls with a full epoxy option. Elan also uses cored hulls. Dufour also uses cored hulls.

All of those are mass production builders

Bonded yes, laminated no!

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Bonded yes, laminated no!

I thought that we have seen already that when well made with proper materials and the proper way a bond can have advantages in what regards strength to a lamination. Bonded structural parts are used everywhere from buildings to airplanes to cars and boats. F1 cars are bonded. See if you came to the XXI century: Bonding if well done can be better than lamination stop talking about it as if it is always an inferior method regarding lamination.

Besides only Jeanneau and Beneteau use bonded counter moulding, the others use also top bonding for some parts but also extensively lamination.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by minaret

That is closed mold infusion. It is, by default, infusion if there is a fiber material "infused" by resin. Injection implies a closed mold which is simply injected with a plastic in liquid form. No fiber reinforcement. They are simply trying to be friendly to the lay person.

So they call it injection and you call it infusion. That is about what I said, that generically both therms are used for slightly different process and sometimes regarding the same thing:

Vacuum Injection Moulding boat shell - YouTube

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

BTW

With the technology at hand today. With a smart phone and a couple of power cells. ;-)

Would it be possible to build a device that would simply state: "Woo hoo - slow down, you are pushing this boat too hard!"

I mean it. Boat electronics must be the most behind times branch of technology today.

b.

Not in top racing conditions. That are about to find out how hard can you push a boat before it breaks, that is what makes them win, I mean pushing the boat to the limit without breaking it. Sometimes they are too optimistic, other times what a racing top boat could take 5 years ago is not the same it can take now due to material stress (in boats that in 5 years do hundred of thousands of miles).
For cruising sailboats yes but that is pretty much irrelevant and certainly expensive. You should know when the boat is being pushed too hard and when defensive sailing is on order. You are not racing neither pushing the boat to the limits.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

The ARC is not our cup of tea, I know the social side is wonderful but its a big price for a couple of good parties and the concept of additional safety is more a myth. Nope we always travel on our own but I understand how some get a feeling of safety when in groups even if they are spread all over the Atlantic but in my opinion it is just a feeling.
I'm working on a couple of projects(fixing your boat in exotic ports) and we should be ready to go in about a week to 10 days, depending on the weather. The ARC stops at CV Islands but we are going direct, it takes me a week to get in the grove and I don't want to do it twice. JC's new rally is leaving mid month from Lanzarote and one group of the ARC is leaving around the 3rd week from Grand Canaria. Somewhere in there if we find good northerlies we will be gone. .

Only the smaller group on the ARC, the one that they used to call ARC+ stops at the Gran Canaria. Those had leaved already.

The much bigger fleet will make it directly and will leave a bit after 20 this month.

Yes, I agree the ARC is expensive but I would leave at the same time just as a way to compare the performance of my boat and my performance as a cruising sailor with the performance of hundreds of other boats and sailors. That would be more fun, but that is just me.

For the ones that want to have a look at the ARC+ and the performance of the several boats they have a tracker:

World Cruising Club - Fleet Viewer

Look at the incredibly good performance of that IP 45 or the Gozzard 41...I had been astonished with that on previous editions, but not now

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Polux

Jesus Christ !!!! I thought that we have seen already that when well made with proper materials and the proper way a bond can have advantages in what regards strength to a lamination. Bonded structural parts are used everywhere from buildings to airplanes to cars and boats. F1 cars are bonded. See if you came to the XXI century: Bonding if well done can be better than lamination stop talking about it as if it is always an inferior method regarding lamination.

Besides only Jeanneau and Beneteau use bonded counter moulding, the others use also top bonding for some parts but also extensively lamination.

Pólux im just answering to your post , to be clear and dont confuse, beneteaus and jeaneaus have the grid liner bonded but not laminated, a huge diference, you dont know a crapp about laminations since you dont mess with FG , so dont confuse with your wrong statments , they are bonded with plexus but not a single ounce of Fiberglass are used in the grid liners , keep your facts straight!!!

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Pólux im just answering to your post , to be clear and dont confuse, beneteaus and jeaneaus have the grid liner bonded but not laminated, a huge diference, you dont know a crapp about laminations since you dont mess with FG , so dont confuse with your wrong statments , they are bonded with plexus but not a single ounce of Fiberglass are used in the grid liners , keep your facts straight!!!

And there you go assuming things about other people you don't know: "you dont know a crapp about laminations since you dont mess with FG "
May I point to you that I have built alone (but over the guidance of a very experienced boat builder) a fiberglass boat and that makes that statement of yours odd?

Besides you were talking generically about a post (that you quoted) were I talked about
Jeanneau, Beneteau, Bavaria,Hanse, Delphia, Dehler, and Dufour and that obviously your statement: "Bonded yes, laminated no!", giving what you quoted, referred to all of them and that makes what you said incorrect and not true.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Polux

Jesus Christ !!!! I thought that we have seen already that when well made with proper materials and the proper way a bond can have advantages in what regards strength to a lamination. Bonded structural parts are used everywhere from buildings to airplanes to cars and boats. F1 cars are bonded. See if you came to the XXI century: Bonding if well done can be better than lamination stop talking about it as if it is always an inferior method regarding lamination.

Besides only Jeanneau and Beneteau use bonded counter moulding, the others use also top bonding for some parts but also extensively lamination.

You thought wrong. Bonding with plexus is never as good as a laminate-never. Its strictly a money saver for the builder. Also, it is not possible to glass in a hull liner. Unless the work is done by a very small midget who ends up living in the space between liner and hull forever. That would be great, then you'd have someone who can access the hull interior for repairs! Liners mean cheap poor construction, period.

[neilpride]

Lets end it please. I Quote you.

Jeanneau and Beneteau use not cored boats but a system of monolitic hull and Monolithic structural counter moulding LAMINATED and bonded to the hull for strength instead of a cored hull.

So, they are bonded with just plexus, laminated nop! and the bond is uneven because never ever the grid liner rest even in the hull, leaving gaps everywhere , not at the joints , then you have keel bolts trough bolted to this flat sections of liner, and not in a proper grid stringer or bulky structure, remember cheeki rafiki keel isue? then you have the cruiser hiting the rock or grounding the boat, cracking the liner and making the whole structure weak or delaminated , unbonded from the hull, then the repair is a expensive one meaning sometimes cutting the grid liner and reglassing the whole thing, i mean i dont have any idea why you guys love this kind of miserable plastic thing in a boat?? but oh well ...

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by minaret

You thought wrong. Bonding with plexus is never as good as a laminate-never. Its strictly a money saver for the builder.

You keep saying this. Do you have documentation to back that up? The reason I'm asking is that the documentation I was able to find online regarding Plexus (not just the marketing copy, but a couple of field reports as well) says the opposite. I added the links in one of my posts a while back.

For example, one of those reports specifically said that Plexus was better than epoxy/glass tabbing because it was more flexible. You said the exact opposite. Which is true?

You also said earlier that one of the problems with Plexus over glass tabbing is the smaller surface area used in the filleting with Plexus. This one makes sense to me...just as the stuff in the Plexus reports makes sense to me as well.

If you can offer some backup for your statements that would be very helpful in knowing which to believe.

Thanks.

[transmitterdan]

Smack,

Fiberglass reinforcement over a large area is much better structurally than gluing two things together at a narrow strip especially when one part is a piece of plywood. Any decent NA will agree with that. The plywood will fail long before the glue. The fiberglass tabbing adds strength to the plywood. The glue does not.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Smack,

Fiberglass reinforcement over a large area is much better structurally than gluing two things together at a narrow strip especially when one part is a piece of plywood. Any decent NA will agree with that. The plywood will fail long before the glue. The fiberglass tabbing adds strength to the plywood. The glue does not.

Well, yes and no. Like I said, I understand the potential issue with the plywood substrate. But, again, the boat design report I linked to earlier holds that tabbing is NOT structurally superior...and the arguments in that report make sense to me...(see image)

[minaret]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

You keep saying this. Do you have documentation to back that up? The reason I'm asking is that the documentation I was able to find online regarding Plexus (not just the marketing copy, but a couple of field reports as well) says the opposite. I added the links in one of my posts a while back.

For example, one of those reports specifically said that Plexus was better than epoxy/glass tabbing because it was more flexible. You said the exact opposite. Which is true?

You also said earlier that one of the problems with Plexus over glass tabbing is the smaller surface area used in the filleting with Plexus. This one makes sense to me...just as the stuff in the Plexus reports makes sense to me as well.

If you can offer some backup for your statements that would be very helpful in knowing which to believe.

Thanks.

Get some plexus and apply it to a waxed surface, then peel it off for a thin sheet of straight plexus. Then do the same with a typical bulkhead tab layup. Then bend yer samples till they break. The plexus breaks easily by hand after bending not very far. The glass can bend full circle with no fractures. Just try it.