Rudder Failures

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Polux

Yes, I sail a lot here on my chair, I mean in winter. out of the winter I am sailing without the chair....and out of sail forums

Same tricks here! Except we stay put in the summer and sail in the winter!

b.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I will agree here. Like a First, just two steps further. Say a shortened and differently optimised Farr 40. Deal?

IMOCAs and VORs are sailed by autopilots too. We will call them easy boat then. Sorry, bad joke. I will not. I will not judge a boat by an autopilot. I will judge a sailor by their ability to sail a boat. The spectrum is wild.

Now Firsts are not typically a cruiser's choice. Oceanises are. Or am I living in some end of the world marina that attracts only the oldest and clunkiest of the cruising crowd?

If a boat has loads of stability does not imply we are supposed to drive her as if she were a brick. THIS IS HOW RUDDER DAMAGE OCCURS: ignorant sailors having no idea of when a boat is pushed too hard, with forces that could normally be converted to speed but are only converted to extra strain.

And last, why buy a full blood boat and sail her at any less than her full potential?

b.

HeHe Barnie!! Good pointthis remind me the rich with a 115 swan motoring the whole saturday ,,,,

[barnakiel]

BTW

With the technology at hand today. With a smart phone and a couple of power cells. ;-)

Would it be possible to build a device that would simply state: "Woo hoo - slow down, you are pushing this boat too hard!"

I mean it. Boat electronics must be the most behind times branch of technology today.

b.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I will agree here. Like a First, just two steps further. Say a shortened and differently optimised Farr 40. Deal?

IMOCAs and VORs are sailed by autopilots too. We will call them easy boat then. Sorry, bad joke. I will not. I will not judge a boat by an autopilot. I will judge a sailor by their ability to sail a boat. The spectrum is wild.

Now Firsts are not typically a cruiser's choice. Oceanises are. Or am I living in some end of the world marina that attracts only the oldest and clunkiest of the cruising crowd?

If a boat has loads of stability it does not imply we are supposed to drive her as if she were a brick. THIS IS HOW RUDDER DAMAGE OCCURS: ignorant sailors having no idea of when a boat is pushed too hard, with forces that could normally be converted to speed but are only converted to extra strain.

And last, why buy a full blood boat and sail her at any less than her full potential?

b.

If you sail a class 40 or Open60 at 60% of its potential you can bet that is an easy boat. After all a Open 60 can be raced at 90% of its potential by a 75 old good sailor. The Pogo 12.50 is just that, a Class40 hull with a smaller mast, smaller sails and the same stability.

No, a Farr 40 is a nervous boat, hard to sail and that's why it needs a crew. This one is a solo boat and as the solo boat is designed to be easy and to be sailed on autopilot.

Read this comment about a Pogo owner (he is about 60 years old). That's a comment wrote on the first year of ownership. Now he sails routinely the boat solo.

He says about it:

"After almost 3.000 NM, the boat lived up to our expectations. We wanted it to be safe, fast in most circumstances, easy to handle, simple to maintain and sufficiently comfortable for longer cruises."

You can read the rest here:
Interesting Sailboats: March 2014
Interesting Sailboats: Eric - POGO 12.50

Before you start to say that I am being unfair because I would like to have one, i should say that the Pogo is not the boat I want for me, not only for being too spartan but because I like too much going upwind not to have a maximized upwind boat. But the Pogo is not only faster downwind (and easier to sail fast) as it is also faster on a beam reach. Mine is faster upwind and with weak winds. On the overall performance the Pogo 12.50 is faster.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Polux

It seems to me that saying that the Sundeer 65 is the fastest cruising boat ever made is a vast exaggeration. There are lot's of performance cruiser of that size faster. If the boat was that faster surely would be used for racing, I mean cruising/racing, like the ARC or that Transat for big yachts (mostly cruising yachts) from East to west. Never saw one racing.

I don't know - name one. I don't know whether it exists or not, but I really can't think of one.

[barnakiel]

BTW

As inspired by Pollux's post (on IMOCAs):

Why are twin, kickup, outboard rudders so unpopular with cruisers? (???)

I can see many benefits:
- backup,
- no / little damage when hit,
- easier steering with modern beamy sterns,
- easy to replace or rebuild (no shafts, no corrosion, etc.),
- smaller foils, way less load,
- can be inspected without diving or haul-out,
- etc.

In my book, an excellent choice for any serious cruiser.

Why not popular at all?

b.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I don't know - name one. I don't know whether it exists or not, but I really can't think of one.

Swan 60?

Mark

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by colemj

Swan 60?

Mark

But the 60 is more likely a racer cruiser??

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Polux

If you sail a class 40 or Open60 at 60% of its potential you can bet that is an easy boat. After all a Open 60 can be raced at 90% of its potential by a 75 old good sailor. The Pogo 12.50 is just that, a Class40 hull with a smaller mast, smaller sails and the same stability.

No, a Farr 40 is a nervous boat, hard to sail and that's why it needs a crew. This one is a solo boat and as the solo boat is designed to be easy and to be sailed on autopilot.

(...)

I see no point in sailing a Class 40 or an Open 60 at 60% of their potential. Except only perhaps if they have a rudder failure of sorts.

I am nearly always trying to sail our most not radical 26'er at above 90% of her potential (that's about 3.5 knots or thereabouts). Having learned what I learned in NZ I now believe sailing slow kills the boat, and the soul.

You are bang on about Farr 40. The one I sailed was not the easiest boat to drive esp bearing off at the top mark on a windy day.

I cannot say if IMOCAs are easy boats ever. I must get more experience. Looking from the dock, I find them huge and most physically demanding. I think I could maybe call a Class 40 easy; they look easy to me (easy in the Pogo way). But IMOCAs are beasts, immense and most possibly well beyond my fitness levels. Beautiful, with strong, well designed, well built rudders, and yet beyond even my wildest imaginary reach.

b.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

BTW

As inspired by Pollux's post (on IMOCAs):

Why are twin, kickup, outboard rudders so unpopular with cruisers? (???)

I can see many benefits:
- backup,
- no / little damage when hit,
- easier steering with modern beamy sterns,
- easy to replace or rebuild (no shafts, no corrosion, etc.),
- smaller foils, way less load,
- can be inspected without diving or haul-out,
- etc.

In my book, an excellent choice for any serious cruiser.

Why not popular at all?

b.

Maybe because the outboard twin rudders looks extreme in a cruising boat? also the linkage conecting both rudders penétrate the hull at the stern , with both tillers i dont see a problem but with a Wheel could be a bit tough to enginer something good and not so expensive.. im with you in this one, its a really good solution, i see some french boats around with both twin outboard rudders, docking can be a isue since the rudders are out of prop wash and in the IMOCAS i think the tiller rudder linkage is isolated from the rest of the hull in the stern , and they are limited to the wide trasom surf boards kind of boats ...

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I don't know - name one. I don't know whether it exists or not, but I really can't think of one.

Many, starting by the Gunboat, passing by this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-shRYc6oCU

and this one:
http://www.finot-conq.com/en/content/ourson-rapide
this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9nwmtviWVw

this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0yto9Xalhk

No, maybe this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kMA6ym0zGw

Caro Botin and Partners 65 racer cruiser | The Daily Sail

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

BTW

As inspired by Pollux's post (on IMOCAs):

Why are twin, kickup, outboard rudders so unpopular with cruisers? (???)

I can see many benefits:
- backup,
- no / little damage when hit,
- easier steering with modern beamy sterns,
- easy to replace or rebuild (no shafts, no corrosion, etc.),
- smaller foils, way less load,
- can be inspected without diving or haul-out,
- etc.

In my book, an excellent choice for any serious cruiser.

Why not popular at all?

b.

Normally those are out of the transom. Some smaller sailboats use them. On a bigger boat they are a liability when you are moored med style, with the stern to the quay. When the strong wind comes is normal the boats going against the wall (big fender on the the back)....and then goodbye rudders

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Maybe because the outboard twin rudders looks extreme in a cruising boat? also the linkage conecting both rudders penétrate the hull at the stern , with both tillers i dont see a problem but with a Wheel could be a bit tough to enginer something good and not so expensive.. im with you in this one, its a really good solution, i see some french boats around with both twin outboard rudders, docking can be a isue since the rudders are out of prop wash and in the IMOCAS i think the tiller rudder linkage is isolated from the rest of the hull in the stern , and they are limited to the wide trasom surf boards kind of boats ...

Now there are many such full beam, well aft, designs. New Benes, Dufours, X-Yachts, etc. They seem to lend themselves.

True it is all about the looks. Like the double enders in the 70'ies. And then we get urban legends about apparent supremacy of this or that. But people buy looks. Too bad. They could have better boats otherwise.

You are also right about the wash, lack of it, much as today they tend to disregard wash and push the boat around with bow/ thrusters.

Just think of it, one day soon a 100% custom boat will be available from huge 3D printers. I have already started drawing ours ...

b.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by neilpride

But the 60 is more likely a racer cruiser??

Don't know - I was guessing. Looking at interior pictures, they looked like all-out cruising design and equipped to me. One can have a fast racing-quality boat and still be a comfortable cruiser, no?

Mark

[neilpride]

So far so good the Imocas and another racing beasts surf at insane speeds and most of the time DW, i dont know if in a cruising boat the lack of this kind of speeds records make the twin rudders useless in the sense of perfomance, if i understand well a 6 ft blade submerged have a lot of grip no matter if the boat is pounding upwind at 4 knts, in other words, what we can expect from twin rudder config in all points of sail?? blade aeration could be a isue.. doublé rudder fouling another.