Rudder Failures

[neilpride]

1985 Hunter Legend sailboat for sale in North Dakota 40.000$$ 1985.

I have a friend who sell their 40 legend for 35000$ ..

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I would never defend cheap construction. But efficient construction isn't the same as cheap.

But I will defend that just because a boat is a "production" model of the B/C/H companies doesn't make it cheap construction! Just some facts of my 2001 model:

1 - solid fiberglass below the waterline
2 - balsa cored above the waterline
3 - all fiberglass sheets CNC cut to design and hand rolled
4 - deck has aluminum backing plates at all penetrations
5 - deck/hull flanged and assembled with 5200 and through bolted
6 - furniture CNC cut and assembled on a mold for fit
7 - interior assembly then bonded to the hull and the bulkheads fiberglassed to the hull. Even the berth framing is glassed to the hull.
8 - lead keel bolted to a reinforced grid with 7 1" and 1 3/4" 316SS bolts with large backing plates
9 - Kevlar in the hull from the bow to the keel sump

Just what is "cheap" in this construction???

Far as value goes; I bought my 2001 model 4 years ago for $115k. As a percentage of original base price that is pretty good! Today 4 years later my model is listing for more than what I paid.

And 13 years after the boat was built there has been NO issues with any of the manufacturer built items or any of the systems far as the installation. This isn't some internet forum expertize smoke and mirrors, these are personal facts!

I agree, good construction doesn't necessarily have to be old. But to me... the majority of new are light... or cheap. I know not everyone agrees. Really nothing wrong with a lot of the new "cheap" boats at all.... everything has it's purpose.
To me an offshore boat that will be pounded, heavily rolled from side to side etc etc should be more like an offroad 4 wheel vehicle..... you could do it in a Yugo , but probably shouldn't!

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You've just done the inflation backward -- innocent mistake!

$125k in 1989 dollars is $240k today. So the depreciation is $154k or 64%.


But I don't think depreciation is a meaningful term much for boats anyway. Boats are like helicopters, not like cars. A hunk of fiberglass holding together a multitude of limited life systems, which constantly need repairing and upgrading and replacing. If your boat is well taken care of, there's little left of what was delivered in 1989, other than the nearly worthless hull, and what is left will be more or less timed out, and the cost of all of that is not reflected in the depreciation calculation.

The point is that all boats -- production or not, cheap or expensive -- are holes in the water you pour money into. The idea of "holding its value" is ridiculous when applied to any boat, production or not.

I doubt that cheap production boats "depreciate" any more than expensive ones do. Nor do I see any evidence that their useful life is any less.

Good point (whoever made it) about expensive boats depreciating faster than cheap ones. I don't know but would guess that's very true. It sure is with cars. A well used Mercedes or Cadillac sell terribly cheap.... compared with their original cost!

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Nautor dont have demand for smaller sizes i guess, they are marketing the big boys really well, but this can change from one year to the other , molds are a huge investment , without demand the yard loose money...

Okay, so I see that Hinckley, for example, is still making the SW42 (their smallest cruising boat) - and I've seen one entry via Google for the current base price being right at $900K?

The question is: who out there is CURRENTLY making the kind of boat you guys want, at the size you guys seem to want, that can be sailed by 2-3 people like most cruisers do, and is affordable to a fairly good chunk of the cruising market?

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by neilpride

1985 Hunter Legend sailboat for sale in North Dakota 40.000$$ 1985.

I have a friend who sell their 40 legend for 35000$ ..

Heh-heh. You stinker!

Why look! A Swan 41 for $58K (and dropping)

1974 Swan 41 sailboat for sale in California

Keep trying Neil.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Okay, so I see that Hinckley, for example, is still making the SW42 (their smallest cruising boat) - and I've seen one entry via Google for the current base price being right at $900K?

The question is: who out there is CURRENTLY making the kind of boat you guys want, at the size you guys seem to want, that can be sailed by 2-3 people like most cruisers do, and is affordable to a fairly good chunk of the cruising market?

Because Hinckley maybe still have demand for the 42 ...

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Heh-heh. You stinker!

Why look! A Swan 41 for $58K (and dropping)

1974 Swan 41 sailboat for sale in California

Keep trying Neil.

Yes why not, good for you!! i probably take a look at that lovely swan anyway , your legend 40 1985 89 dance around 40000 to 60000$, if you dive a bit more maybe you found a good deal somewhere, Swan is a hell of boat for me, if you see something similar to the 1974 41 for 58000 pls send me a pm mate

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Yes why not, good for you!! i probably take a look at that lovely swan anyway , your legend 40 1985 89 dance around 40000 to 60000$, if you dive a bit more maybe you found a good deal somewhere, Swan is a hell of boat for me, if you see something similar to the 1974 41 for 58000 pls send me a pm mate

Like I said earlier - you couldn't pay me enough to buy a Swan like that. But go for it if you want it.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by Polux

Yes you are right about cast iron on production boats even if the best, as I said is steel and lead. Even so cast iron allows for a much narrower foil as you can see on the pictures. Regarding cruising boats not having this type of keel but " flattened bulbs on more or less normal fin keels", you are talking about older designs I am talking about the new ones. Many use them already:

You can have all those kelp/pot/line catchers on your cruising boat. I'll take a swept keel with a fair leading edge.

Twin rudders are interesting. On one hand, I'd prefer the keel hit a log or floatsam and deflect it from the rudder. On the other hand, you have a spare with 2 rudders.
Are they maneuverable without a bow thruster? I can't imagine not having prop wash over the rudder when docking/maneuvering.

Still would rather have a more moderate stern that doesn't require twin rudders to keep it on course. But the market wants twin aft staterooms and super wide cockpits. And designers have come up with the marketing to have you believe a wide sterned iron shoal draft keeled boat will perform like an open 60. And that the chine helps with performance more than opens room in the aft cabins...

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Like I said earlier - you couldn't pay me enough to buy that Swan. But go for it if you want it.

wow thats funy, if you have the chance to buy a excelent swan for less the money you pay for the legend you choose the legend!! okey okey...

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Okay, so I see that Hinckley, for example, is still making the SW42 (their smallest cruising boat) - and I've seen one entry via Google for the current base price being right at $900K?

The question is: who out there is CURRENTLY making the kind of boat you guys want, at the size you guys seem to want, that can be sailed by 2-3 people like most cruisers do, and is affordable to a fairly good chunk of the cruising market?

shooting from the hip maybe: Hallberg Rassy, Island Packet, Tayana?
Not that they are cheap....

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by neilpride

wow thats funy, if you have the chance to buy a excelent swan for less the money you pay for the legend you choose the legend!! okey okey...

That's exactly right.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

shooting from the hip maybe: Hallberg Rassy, Island Packet, Tayana?
Not that they are cheap....

Cool.

IP 360 @ ~350K


HR 372 @ ~382K


Tayana 37 @ (Is it still being made?)


(PS - you guys might want to have a word with HR about that keel and rudder.)

[sailorboy1]

BTW - the current Morris ocean series boats (45,48,52 footers) are modern hull designs with bolted keels and spade rudders.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Here's an honest question for the BWC...

Why is a high-end brand like Swan not even bothering with boats under 53' anymore? Same with Hylas at 46'?

I guess the answer you want to hear is that they can't compete with Groupe Beneteau?

That's partially true -- if someone can afford a Swan or a Contest, then that person can probably afford a bigger boat, and although we've debated "big vs small" I think few people would not gladly have a bigger boat if they could afford the boat, the berthing, the maintenance, etc. -- at least after trying out a bigger boat. So people buying boats under say 45' these days are 97% of them on a budget, and so will mostly not stop at reducing the size, they will find a more economical maker as well.

But not entirely -- HR make a 31'-er, for example.

No doubt "production boats" (the term is a misnomer; all boats are "produced", Swans too) are a better value altogether. The only thing I dispute is that they are a better value because they benefit from a much higher degree of "engineering". Some posted that some makers put a couple of engineers, and an interior designer (lol!), with the naval architect! Friends, that is not engineering. A car, a much simpler device than a cruising sailboat, is engineered by whole buildings full of highly skilled and highly specialized engineers, in a process which costs millions. A few calculations done by a couple guys with Autocad and a FE analysis package is not "engineering" in that sense. All sailboats, "production" or not, are engineered the way a village basket weaver "engineers" a basket, compared to the way cars are engineered.

The difference is that with "production" boats, some effort is made at what is called in the building industry "value engineering", so that materials, components, and techniques are chosen with an eye on how to optimize costs, and somewhat higher volumes allow the makers to buy things better. But in many ways, "production" boats are just cheap -- often "optimization" is really nothing more than cutting corners. And there's nothing wrong with that -- how many people don't want to save money on this hideously expensive hobby? Rather few, I think.

Different makers are different, and even different boats are. But many of these cheap boats are really very good. I spent a few charters on Beneteaus, one Oceanis 421 (I think), and other similar ones. A well designed and damned good sailing boat (cheap also often means light, which is good), with well balanced helm, pretty nice rig (much of the same stuff you find on Oysters, including the Lewmar winches), excellent
upwind sailing qualities, spartan but perfectly liveable accomodation. I sailed it in some tough weather, including top end of a F8 on multiple days when the Meltemi was really blowing, and it was perfectly fine in that weather. In fact it sailed so incomparably better than the better-built but slug-like so-called bluewater boat (my previous one) back home, that I started looking for something else to replace it (my present boat ). The Bene was a little creaky, and it had a hideous laminate sole (the French like that carp in their buildings, too), but who cares when the thing sails like a demon -- I would be perfectly happy in such a boat, if I had not been lucky enough to be able to buy (for cash) the boat I have. Other products of Groupe Beneteau are maybe not as good; the 50 (like the one which fell apart and sank) is supposed to be a dog.


Why do we always have these arguments? (Although I have to say this has been one of the more civilized ones). Why can't people just be happy liking the boats they like? People have different taste and values in this, just like in so many other things in life, and for the life of me, I can't figure out why that bothers some people.