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Old 25-11-2014, 15:31   #1246
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Well, of course. It couldn't possibly be anything else.



Thank you. Actually most of the problems we're talking about are not only confined to mass production boats. But the continual drone from the BCW is that these kinds of problems somehow "prove" that production boats are not fit for offshore sailing when they happen on production boats. It's ridiculous.
Hold on, no one say the quality boats cant suffer rudder problems, now make numbers, how many Hunters loose rudders in fair weather and how many Amels rudders are falling off, even a Swan can loose a rudder, but how many actually have this problems?

How many Aldens loose a keel and how Mass market boats loose a keel..
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Old 25-11-2014, 15:38   #1247
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Hold on, no one say the quality boats cant suffer rudder problems, now make numbers, how many Hunters loose rudders in fair weather and how many Amels rudders are falling off, even a Swan can loose a rudder, but how many actually have this problems?

How many Aldens loose a keel and how Mass market boats loose a keel..
Look at the ratios. Many of these examples are coming from rallies - which provide very good, factual documentation. About the best there is actually.

So run the numbers. It's all there.

As I said, if you look at the total number of Alden 54s out there and take the Zulu failure into account, by logic you should start telling people to stay away from Aldens. They obviously have a very high failure ratio - and therefore must be poorly built. Unfortunately, my beloved Hunter seems to be have the same problem in these numbers. Malo is not even fairing that well. And Hans Christians seem to be downright dangerous.

Jeanneau and Beneteau, however, seem to be knocking it out of the park out there in the blue water even with a failure or two.
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Old 25-11-2014, 15:40   #1248
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Re: Rudder Failures

Haaa the rallies again!!!!
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Old 25-11-2014, 15:42   #1249
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Re: Rudder Failures

The Malo rudder seems a much better design to me. The brown rudder is kind of a pre-historic design, it has to work very badly. It is certainly designed before rudders were designed with CFD help...in fact it seems to be designed without any kind of help.



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Old 25-11-2014, 15:42   #1250
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Yes, I agree with you on that. Oysters have been modernizing their boats, spade twin rudders, carbon spars, modern hulls designed by one of the top NA (the one that designs the Elan and the Azuree too), makes the new Oyster incomparably better than the older ones in what regards performance and we can see that on the IRC rating and on the ARC results, were the new Oysters do very well, as well as the older Oysters from their now extinct performance line (lightwave). New oysters are not old designed boats, like for instance Island Packet, Cabo Rico or Gozzard are.

But for most here that like old designed boats new Oysters will not fit on what they would call proper cruisers: They still think that carbon rigs and spade rudders are fragile things that should only be used on racing boats

I believe that the time where we will see a oyster with a full carbon hull will not be far. On Oyster they announce them already as "performance bluewater cruising yachts"
Sorry, but this is very misleading. Normal Oysters still have full skeg rudders and alu masts. The only spade rudders are on the twin rudder boats from 67 feet up, and carbon masts only from 88 feet. Oyster do not use single spade rudders. 99% of their production is still full skeg rudder, alu mast, etc., so there isn't any "new Oyster"; Oyster continue the traditional house values to this day. And even the 88 foot Oyster with carbon rig, like all other Oysters, is a heavy displacement boat with solid, uncored fiberglass below the waterline. See: Oyster Yachts | Luxury Yacht Builder | Brokerage | Yachts for Sale | Charter | World Rally

The new Oyster 625:


Name:   Oyster-625-Sailplan-thumb.jpg
Views: 154
Size:  2.8 KB

Full skeg rudder, alu mast, heavy displacement, solid fiberglass bottom.
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Old 25-11-2014, 15:46   #1251
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Re: Rudder Failures

This how it work for me, xxx Brand boat loose a rudder the last month, until here all ok, is just another rudder movie, 2 months later same xxx Brand model loose a rudder again, well can happen, 7 months later same Brand xxx boat loose the rudder again, something is going on,,,,
Then a year later a SAR in the midle of nowhere report a rudder problem yacht in distress and WTF, same Brand xxx boat, now something is going on,,, and later the fórums armadas spaming the fórums with pictures of a xxx Brand boat with a hollow thin rudder stock filled with foam ,,, then the debate start!!!
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Old 25-11-2014, 15:49   #1252
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
The Malo rudder seems a much better design to me. The brown rudder is kind of a pre-historic design, it has to work very badly. It is certainly designed before rudders were designed with CFD help...in fact it seems to be designed without any kind of help.



Sure, the Brown rudder have thousands of miles under the belt and perform really well for this kind of boat, and its 36 years old baby, !!!

When your Cometa reach the same status then we talk,,, by the way the gap between the skeg and the rudder its because the tubulators are off for antifouling... dont be ass!!!ust kidding take it sporty..
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Old 25-11-2014, 15:55   #1253
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Haaa the rallies again!!!!
Absolutely. Where else are you going to find a head-to-head comparison of many different boats and brands doing exactly what they are intended to do - sail offshore?

Furthermore, these boats are typically skippered and crewed by those with a fair amount of experience and training, they are boats that have been properly prepared for the trip (not just winging it), etc. So we can't blame problems/failures purely on ignorance or neglect. This is about the boats.

So - yes, the rallies. If you want factual examples of how boats perform - you have PLENTY OF IT right there.
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Old 25-11-2014, 15:58   #1254
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Absolutely. Where else are you going to find a head-to-head comparison of many different boats and brands doing exactly what they are intended to do - sail offshore?

Furthermore, these boats are typically skippered and crewed by those with a fair amount of experience and training, they are boats that have been properly prepared for the trip (not just winging it), etc. So we can't blame problems/failures purely on ignorance or neglect. This is about the boats.

So - yes, the rallies. If you want factual examples of how boats perform - you have PLENTY OF IT right there.

We talk about perfomance or broken rudders?
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Old 25-11-2014, 16:13   #1255
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Re: Rudder Failures

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We talk about perfomance or broken rudders?
Aren't those very closely related?
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Old 25-11-2014, 16:20   #1256
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Sorry, but this is very misleading. Normal Oysters still have full skeg rudders and alu masts. The only spade rudders are on the twin rudder boats from 67 feet up, and carbon masts only from 88 feet. Oyster do not use single spade rudders. 99% of their production is still full skeg rudder, alu mast, etc., so there isn't any "new Oyster"; Oyster continue the traditional house values to this day. And even the 88 foot Oyster with carbon rig, like all other Oysters, is a heavy displacement boat with solid, uncored fiberglass below the waterline. See: Oyster Yachts | Luxury Yacht Builder | Brokerage | Yachts for Sale | Charter | World Rally

The new Oyster 625:

Attachment 92349

Full skeg rudder, alu mast, heavy displacement, solid fiberglass bottom.
On a previous post I said the the new Oysters have twin rudders. For new I mean the ones that will come after the first one with twin rudders, the Oyster 885. The 625, even if a recent model is older than the 885. Probably the last Oyster with a skeg and a single rudder.

The carbon mast is offered as an option on the other models and clearly, if they used it on their top of the line model it is because they consider it a better option, they just don't use it standard on the other models not to inflate the price.

Regarding the hull, of the 625, for instance:
"Hand lay-up GRP hull and deck with Kevlar and Carbon fibre laminates in hull. Outer hull Laminate in Vinylester resin - cored topsides. "

Regarding Oyster being heavy boats, it seems you really don't like them, maybe for having been the primary cause of Moody bankruptcy. Taking for instance the 625 that you posted as example, how can you talk about an heavy boat with a "A displacement length ratio of 182 and a sail area displacement ratio of 22.3"?
Oyster Yachts | Fleet | 625 | Overview

I know that they are a bit outdated but US Sailing in what refers ratios, in what regards the Oyster 625 and SA/D ratio considers it a racer and in what regards D/L ratio, a racer too
SA / D Ratio
D / L Ratio

So, a bit exaggerated to call it an heavy boat don't you think? Maybe a fast medium weight bluewater cruising boat?
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Old 25-11-2014, 16:32   #1257
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Sure, the Brown rudder have thousands of miles under the belt and perform really well for this kind of boat, and its 36 years old baby, !!!

When your Cometa reach the same status then we talk,,, by the way the gap between the skeg and the rudder its because the tubulators are off for antifouling... dont be ass!!!ust kidding take it sporty..
I don't give a dam about what happens to the rudder of the Comet in 36 years, I will not be around to care and even if I was certainly I would not be sailing on a (then ) outdated 36 year old sailboat
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Old 25-11-2014, 16:38   #1258
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Aren't those very closely related?
Well, no. Not related!
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Old 25-11-2014, 16:39   #1259
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Well, no. Not related!
Wow. You are a good sailor! Heh-heh.
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Old 25-11-2014, 16:40   #1260
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Re: Rudder Failures

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I don't give a dam about what happens to the rudder of the Comet in 36 years, I will not be around to care and even if I was certainly I would not be sailing on a (then ) outdated 36 year old sailboat
Bingo.
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