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Old 30-10-2014, 13:32   #106
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by poiu View Post
Yep, a 1% failure rate is a colossally huge enormous number. If you multiply that by say a 30 year boating career and multiply it by say 20 to account for the unused fleet you mention the probability of failure for your actively used boat that is used in a career of boating goes to 600%.

It is the little numbers that kill you.
Yes, the numbers kill you. I don't know the total amount of new cruising boats built by year but looking at the output of the biggest boat builders I would say well over 6000. Just referring to the last 5 years that will make 30 000 almost new sailboats and if those where experiencing a 1% failure rate we would be hearing about 300 cases on the last 5 years on almost new boats.

But there are much more recent production cruisers. If we consider the cruising boats built on the last 15 years, let's say 80 000 cruising boats, then we would be talking of about 800 cases on the last 15 years on what are known as modern production boats.

When I hear experts talking about all the cases that are known on the last 15 years I never heard a number as big as 20 but even if there are for each known case 3 that never come to the public (and with internet forums that is almost impossible) we would have a number of 60 that i believe it is vastly exaggerated.

Compare those 60 with the 800 that correspond to "your" percentage of 1% and tell me if 1% of rudder failures has anything to do with reality
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Old 30-10-2014, 13:53   #107
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Re: Rudder Failures

Know Your Rudder | Sail Magazine

This is the link to a sail mag that quotes the 1% figure, I didn't make it up.
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Old 30-10-2014, 14:29   #108
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Re: Rudder Failures

There are very few rudder failures on boats that seldom, if ever, go to sea. Until you have factual data about the number of failures, AND the number of boats that are sailed seriously, all this talk of percentage failure is without basis.

In the many accounts posted above, we have a few knowledgeable and experienced folks who report that the rudder support structures in Beneteaus is not very strong as delivered. One chap saw this before failure and retrofitted reinforcement on his First series boat and successfully completed a lengthy circumnavigation. Another is a professional in the repair business. In the process of repairing storm damage, he has noted poor construction methods. Perhaps his language was a bit florid, but the observations are valid. The two recent structural failures on Beneteaus, beaten to death here and elsewhere, substantiate those opinions. How many other failures or near failures have occurred? Who knows? Not many near failures (ones that didn't result in loss of boat or life, or merely became difficult to steer or caused minor leaking, etc) are reported to the critical audience of the internet. The lack of reporting doesn't mean that the inadequate engineering was not there.

I think that it is reasonable to say that many of the subject boats are not built with extended ocean passages as a target usage, and that their rudder structures should be beefed up before attempting such adventures. If marina sitting and occasional trips to Catalina (or the local equivalent) is the usage, these modern production boats are well suited to the task, and their popularity reflects this.

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Old 30-10-2014, 15:32   #109
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Know Your Rudder | Sail Magazine

This is the link to a sail mag that quotes the 1% figure, I didn't make it up.
It is a nice article but on it there is no reference to the 1% you refer that as I had already explained is an absurd percentage.

I like specially this part:

"Rudder failure is not a hypothetical concern, and making a focused inspection part of your annual maintenance checklist will go a long way toward ensuring it doesn’t happen to you. If your examination exposes something, don’t let it slide. Dig deeper or bring in a professional. "
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Old 30-10-2014, 15:35   #110
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
It is a nice article but on it there is no reference to the 1% you refer that as I had already explained is an absurd percentage.

I like specially this part:

"Rudder failure is not a hypothetical concern, and making a focused inspection part of your annual maintenance checklist will go a long way toward ensuring it doesn’t happen to you. If your examination exposes something, don’t let it slide. Dig deeper or bring in a professional. "
Read it more carefully, its in the first few paragraphs.
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Old 30-10-2014, 15:57   #111
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
The 10mm drive pin from the ram to the quadrant finally broke after 80,000 miles, so I ended up machining a 12 mm pin.
Obviously a piece of crap if it only lasted 80K miles. Heh-heh.
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Old 30-10-2014, 16:01   #112
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Re: Rudder Failures

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How do you expect to have credibility with statements like that?

You are recovering boats that suffer damage for impact or grounding after an hurricane and are surprised that a rudder is bent or that the boats sustained heavy damage? and from that you take the conclusion that :" beneteau want their customers to be screwed in some isolated spot in the blue ocean"!!!!!
Sometimes, Paulo, comments are so goofy there's no need to respond.

Anyone that is surprised there is damage to a boat when it is grounded/beached/rocked just doesn't sail. It was the same kind of stuff in the Hunter threads.

Whatever.
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Old 30-10-2014, 18:30   #113
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
There are very few rudder failures on boats that seldom, if ever, go to sea. Until you have factual data about the number of failures, AND the number of boats that are sailed seriously, all this talk of percentage failure is without basis.

...How many other failures or near failures have occurred? Who knows? Not many near failures (ones that didn't result in loss of boat or life, or merely became difficult to steer or caused minor leaking, etc) are reported to the critical audience of the internet. The lack of reporting doesn't mean that the inadequate engineering was not there.

...
What was referred as 1% was not problems with the rudder but boats that actually lost the rudder. Losing a rudder is not normal, it is a big issue, a dangerous one and will be the subject of talking among friends, on the club and marina, among shipyard workers. On this days where noticeable or interesting facts regarding sailboats end up on a boat forum it is to be expected that most of the cases will be reported.

Again, just regarding boats made on the last 15 years is not dificult to estimate the number since we now the number that are made on the bigger mass production shipyards. 80 000 cruisers is a very conservative number, probably it is short for many thousands. We cannot estimate what is the total percentage of lost rudders among those boats but it is obvious that a percentage of 1% is plain ridiculous.

That would mean a loss of 800 rudders when those that study those occurrences are not able to report more than 20 cases on all those years.

Not saying that there was not many cases that have not been reported but those 20 cases regards not only the 80 000 cruisers built on the last 15 years but all the sailboats around and that number is hugely superior. Remember that cruisers built on the last 15 years (80 000) means boats built since 1999. Most on this and other forums have boats older than that and many of the boats that we know that have lost rudders are older than that.

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Old 30-10-2014, 18:54   #114
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Read it more carefully, its in the first few paragraphs.
You are right, sorry.

"Before you shrug off rudder failure as a remote concern, consider that the incidence of mid-ocean rudder failures is close to 1 percent—and that’s on sturdy boats that presumably have received a truck-to-keel going over before setting off"

Of course, this statement is not based, maybe an impression. If we want to have some partial but valid statistic in what regards ocean sailing we could make a statistic with all boats participating in all ARC and other Rallies that have solid information about that. Here you have information regarding 10 years of ARC
1997-2007
http://www.worldcruising.com/content...lure_wcm25.pdf

Its easy to know the number of participants and easy to make the statistic. On the last 7 years I believe less boats lost the rudder on the ARC and the percentage is decreasing not increasing as some want to make believe.

Anyway, on those 10 years the percentage is much smaller than 1/100, something like 3.3/1000 and has Jim has stated the probability of that happening on an Ocean passage is way bigger than in Coastal cruising, where you can bring the boat to a nearby port, if you feel something is not right, and repair the rudder.
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Old 30-10-2014, 19:41   #115
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Re: Rudder Failures

Maybe someone was a better memory than mine or is more skillful searching the net since a boat losing the rudder on the ARC surely is somewhere on the net, specially if it is just as close as 2008 to 2013.

For what I can remember (and from what I searched) on those 5 years , that had been the ones with more boats crossing the Atlantic on the Rally, none of the mass production boats lost its rudder.

Last year a Custom made steel Motiva 39 lost his rudder and had to retire from the Rally. In 2009 two yachts were abandoned due to rudder loss, Auriolana II, a one off 53ft sailing boat and Pelican a 53ft Bruce Roberts designed cutter.....and that's all I can find.

It seems that are more problems with expensive custom boats than with production boats maybe because many of them have, on the last years, their rudder systems and rudders made by Jefa. It seems that having a specialist making the rudder systems have improved reliability.



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Old 30-10-2014, 20:15   #116
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
How do you expect to have credibility with statements like that?

You are recovering boats that suffer damage for impact or grounding after an hurricane and are surprised that a rudder is bent or that the boats sustained heavy damage? and from that you take the conclusion that :" beneteau want their customers to be screwed in some isolated spot in the blue ocean"!!!!!

When or where i say im surprise about a Bene Rudder bend after be banged in the rocks for hours? maybe i was not clear in my last post, ok, let me enlighten you.

Sincé this topic is about rudder failures and AP'S, i point what in my eyes its a récipe for trouble in Beneteau Oceanis 50, you remember Blue Pearl Sinking in the Atlantic this year?

Let me start to point something about the rudder and rudder post bulkhead construction plus Autopilot installation in the Oceanis 50,

First. the lever arm is ridiculous short , clamped to the composite rudder stock to close to the top bearing.

Second. The AP is bolted to a thin plywood bulkhead , the bulkhead dont have any single Ounce of fiberglass in any place, is glued with something similar to a Green snot, aka Plexus.

Third.. The top of the rudder post , and this part is really funny and horrible at the same time, the top part is resting in something similar to a Ikea salón table, kind of a set of Plywood partitions , the ply panels are assembled with the Green snot again, WTF!! not a single fillet of resin of fiberglass anywhere!!! believe me, bottom and sides glued with plexus... Do you understand now why Blue Pearl loose the top bulkhead ????

Combine the torque of the AP ram with a Micky Mouse arm lever with a dangerous weak top rudder post construction and you have ???? figúrate dude!!!

Now go ahead and call me Production boat maniac, maybe, but i hate to see this things in boats who suppose have a A CE Ocean Liner Certification....

If you want pictures just reply or quote me and will be a pleasure to post a set of pics, tomorrow im working in the rudder cave to see if we can fiberglass from inside to patch a big hole in the stern... Regards....
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Old 30-10-2014, 20:42   #117
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Re: Rudder Failures

I don't doubt you in the slightest, but I'm definitely curious to see pictures. And this is FAR from the first time I've heard of bulkheads in Beneteaus being attached with something out of a caulking gun. Some friends who'd done a lot of cruising mentioned it to me 20yrs ago.
That said, it's still a jaw dropper to hear. I mean, I know that they use wonder adhesives to glue the window-walls into skyscrapers, but methinks that it just doesn't attach to enough surface area to properly affix a bulkhead to a hull.
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Old 30-10-2014, 20:54   #118
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
...

Second. The AP is bolted to a thin plywood bulkhead , the bulkhead dont have any single Ounce of fiberglass in any place, is glued with something similar to a Green snot, aka Plexus.

T... the ply panels are assembled with the Green snot again, WTF!! not a single fillet of resin of fiberglass anywhere!!! believe me, bottom and sides glued with plexus... Do you understand now why Blue Pearl loose the top bulkhead ????
..
How many Beneteau 50 are out there and since it is not only the 50 that is built that way, how many recent Beneteaus have crossing the Atlantic and circumnavigating without any structural problem on the last years? Hundreds certainly, most of them smaller than the Oceanis 50. I am not saying that the Oceanis is the best built or stronger boat but saying that "" beneteau want their customers to be screwed in some isolated spot in the blue ocean" is not only ridiculous as offensive to all that chose to have a Beneteau and sail in then without any problem.

According with what you say all of those that have circumnavigated or crossed oceans should be on the bottom of the ocean by now

It seems that you don't understand the potential of new materials. It seems that green snot is able to maintain in one piece the boat's structure since I don't know of other cases has bad as that one on that Oceanis 50, and there are tens of thousands of new Beneteaus out there.

Regarding new materials it may seem strange to you but some top sport cars have their structure not welded but glued and the efforts on the structure of a sports car are probably bigger than the ones on a sailing boat. Maybe you should learn more about that green snot. It seem to have a lot of potential.
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Old 30-10-2014, 20:59   #119
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
First. the lever arm is ridiculous short , clamped to the composite rudder stock to close to the top bearing.
Much of what you describe is substandard, but this one is normal. A usual AP tiller arm is 10" and located close to the top bearing. I know of very few that are not like this. In fact, most drive units would not work with a longer lever arm - either not being able to turn the rudder enough, or taking too long to turn it. Likewise, most rudder posts end shortly above their top bearing (hence the term "top"), so there really isn't much space above that for a quadrant and tiller arm.

Also, Plexus is generally stronger than any fillet of resin/filler. It is quite remarkable in its qualities and I don't have any issues with much of a boat being glued with it at all. Of course, where fibers are necessary for load reasons, it is not applicable.

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Old 30-10-2014, 21:21   #120
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Re: Rudder Failures

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How many Beneteau 50 are out there and since it is not only the 50 that is built that way, how many recent Beneteaus have crossing the Atlantic and circumnavigating without any structural problem on the last years? Hundreds certainly, most of them smaller than the Oceanis 50. I am not saying that the Oceanis is the best built or stronger boat but saying that "" beneteau want their customers to be screwed in some isolated spot in the blue ocean" is not only ridiculous as offensive to all that chose to have a Beneteau and sail in then without any problem.

According with what you say all of those that have circumnavigated or crossed oceans should be on the bottom of the ocean by now

It seems that you don't understand the potential of new materials. It seems that green snot is able to maintain in one piece the boat's structure since I don't know of other cases has bad as that one on that Oceanis 50, and there are tens of thousands of new Beneteaus out there.

Regarding new materials it may seem strange to you but some top sport cars have their structure not welded but glued and the efforts on the structure of a sports car are probably bigger than the ones on a sailing boat. Maybe you should learn more about that green snot. It seem to have a lot of potential.

Get real really! new materials?? dont make me laugh, polyester and FG, thats it, plexus is used since long long time ago, or do you sugest that gluing a vital structural component with plexus is ok or enough? i can show you almost all main bulkheads , partitions, structural stuff glued with the Green thing in the Oceanis 50, there is no substitutes for a bulkhead construction, Fiberglass mann!!!! or Carbon, or Kevlar!!

Show me or probe any single new material technology component in a Beneteau ?

Regarding the numbers of boats crossing the pond each year , my point is, the Canary Caribbean shoot is a easy and benign route, is crossed by almost anything, you cant be wrong there related to weather, unless you cross in hurricane season, squalls and strong trades is the norm, all in the ass, Downwind.

Things are diferent in the way back, Azores, Bermuda, thats why many boats are lost some years, gales, storms, or who know if you tick to much to the north. Blue Pearl sink there, by a loose rudder post , AP related ? my 2 cents , previous damage? yes Bad design, flaws, bad construction practiques? my 10 cents...

Dont point anymore the ARC, its a small percentage, many cruisers sail using weather Windows and WX, point A to point B in normal weather, dont make numbers mate, not all the boats in trouble out there report a broken rudder in the net.
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