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Old 20-11-2014, 10:40   #1156
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
+1.

Neil, if you really can't figure out how to sleep 3 crew in that boat, you have very little imagination. No wonder you think everything after 1972 was bad design.
If you mean sleep is like drop your arse and close the eyes in any part of the boat i guess yes, i can figure how to acomódate 3 dudes around, but is not the point, me? i can sleep in almost anything , even one day i take a 2 hours snap in long boom covered by a huge lazy bag sailcover, and we talk about day sailing in flat waters or offshore sailing with weather, 2 diferent animals, seems to me you never be tossed before around the cabin, or you always sleep in the leeward side, or you clip your arnes to this 2 posts kind of a gogo pole dancer , no idea. A proper confy and dry sea bunk with lee clothes is a must in any boat , regarding any Brand.
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Old 20-11-2014, 10:49   #1157
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
This is what people really need to understand. A similar point was made earlier - that boat builders build boats for NEW BUYERS - not the used market.

This is a good thing.

So, this means when you're buying a used boat - buy the newest one you can possibly afford. This makes FAR more sense than putting the same money into a 40+ y.o. old "bluewater" brand that's going to WAY into its usable cycle anyway.

Who here on CF has owned their boat for more than 15 years?

Me, i own my last C&C 40 for the past of 13 years, i never regret such decisión , even i have oferts along the way to sell it...
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Old 20-11-2014, 11:18   #1158
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
This is what people really need to understand. A similar point was made earlier - that boat builders build boats for NEW BUYERS - not the used market.

This is a good thing.

So, this means when you're buying a used boat - buy the newest one you can possibly afford. This makes FAR more sense than putting the same money into a 40+ y.o. old "bluewater" brand that's going to WAY into its usable cycle anyway.

Who here on CF has owned their boat for more than 15 years?
A high end / high quality boat will have a life span that will outlive its owner. My last boat was 40 years old when I sold her and my current boat is 30 years old. Both of these boats, with proper maintenance and upkeep will outlive my still to be born children. That is the reason I either choose to spend the money on a high quality boat or spend little money on a high quality boat that needs a lot of work.

Actually I never felt that boats had a finite lifespans until I began selling and commissioning new Beneteaus.
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Old 20-11-2014, 11:26   #1159
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Re: Rudder Failures

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If you mean sleep is like drop your arse and close the eyes in any part of the boat i guess yes, i can figure how to acomódate 3 dudes around, but is not the point, me? i can sleep in almost anything , even one day i take a 2 hours snap in long boom covered by a huge lazy bag sailcover, and we talk about day sailing in flat waters or offshore sailing with weather, 2 diferent animals, seems to me you never be tossed before around the cabin, or you always sleep in the leeward side, or you clip your arnes to this 2 posts kind of a gogo pole dancer , no idea. A proper confy and dry sea bunk with lee clothes is a must in any boat , regarding any Brand.
Oh I've been tossed around in cabins offshore many times. This is the cabin of a Pearson 365 in one of our off-shore races - with one of the 5 crew tucked in and me heading down for some sleep too...



We had lee cloths on that boat (both settees) and were very comfy. But you can see that the "proper" seaberth to starboard is full of gear. Not used.

Here I am at the helm of a Pacific Seacraft 37 on which we did a 300 mile off-shore race (and 300 mile return) with 6 crew...



This boat had a dinette table lowered to starboard (we used cushions for support) and a settee to port (much like my Hunter's config). And if I recall, that port settee didn't have a lee cloth at that time - and it sucked because we were on a port tack most of the time. The aft quarter-berth was full of gear, so we also used a cramped v-berth.

Personally, while doing watches, I can sleep anywhere...on the cabin sole, on top of sails in the v-berth, whatever. So I'm not picky.

But I definitely like having stuff around me to hold me in place. And I, like others, insist on making my own boat as comfortable for everyone as I can. It lets you relax off-watch...well as much as you can with a few hours of downtime before you have to suit up again.
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Old 20-11-2014, 11:32   #1160
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Re: Rudder Failures

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A high end / high quality boat will have a life span that will outlive its owner. My last boat was 40 years old when I sold her and my current boat is 30 years old. Both of these boats, with proper maintenance and upkeep will outlive my still to be born children. That is the reason I either choose to spend the money on a high quality boat or spend little money on a high quality boat that needs a lot of work.

Actually I never felt that boats had a finite lifespans until I began selling and commissioning new Beneteaus.
Okay - so what exactly is the lifespan of a "high-end/high-quality bluewater" boat? If people are being encouraged to buy them because they are "strong" and "high-quality" - exactly how long are they "strong enough" for that savage bluewater out there?

This is the problem with the "bluewater" argument. It can actually lead to dangerous outcomes.

It's also a problem when you apply the same logic to new boats. EVERY boat has a finite lifespan. Period.

And since, according to this post, you don't appear to buy new boats at all - your expectations are wildly different than the actual market of those that do.
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Old 20-11-2014, 11:48   #1161
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
..
My boat has D/L of under 200, so actually falls in the "cruiser-racer" category.
Light wind performance suffers because of the low SA/D -- 16.5 in my case. The normal working sails are sized for stronger conditions in these latitudes, and you either need different light air sails (I'm working on a light Code 0 for my boat) or the engine, when the true wind is below 15 knots.

By the way, Polux mentioned outsailing a Jeanneau 57 in light air -- that's hardly a surprise since the J57 has a pretty heavy displacement at 27 tons lightship, which gives it L/D of 210. That will be because it's uncored below the waterline. And the Jeanneau has a really small SA/D of under 15. These are good numbers for up here -- this will be a good boat for the English Channel in F7 or F8. But you won't get anywhere at any speed in 10 knots apparent. I know that boat; I have a friend who has one. Nice boat.

That boat will not be much, if any faster than mine in most conditions, as the waterline length is less than a meter more, and the J57 is quite a bit heavier and with less sail area. With that SA/D, you won't need to reef in less than maybe 25 knots true, so in 25 knots true, it will run away from my boat which already needs the first reef in. The J57 will be great in those conditions. I will have an advantage upwind with deeper draft. Also on some points of sail, my staysail will be an advantage over the Jennie's sloop rig, particularly a reach. I will be faster than that Jennie on a reach right up to the point where I have to start reefing (and he doesn't yet).
I don't know of what boat you are talking about but certainly not the Jeanneau 57 model that I am talking about. That one is a fast boat and is a boat able of sailing in 10k apparent wind and in cruising load will do 6/6.5K upwind on those conditions. Here is the polar speed chart where they give for 8K true wind at 45º off the real wind 7k speed. 10 apparent is a bit less than 8 real and the boat was in cruising condition so for what I saw the 6k speed or a bit over are perfectly in accordance with the polar sped, compensating for extra cruising load:
http://www.jeanneau.com/medias/CMS/b...0614122958.pdf

The Jeanneau 57 is a very recent model and the values you give regarding ratios has nothing to do with it. You give it 27tons for light displacement and the boat has 21.5T. You give it a D/L of 210 and the boat has 177. You give it a SA/D of under 15 and he has 19.2. As you say the Jeanneau has a considerable bigger LWL 15.35m and your boat 14.05m. The other ratios from your boat (Sailboat data) indicates also a much slower boat: SA/D 16.6 and D/L 201.4. Not a slow boat for that kind of boat but as I said the Jeanneau 57 is a fast boat and the much bigger draft of the Jeanneau will contribute to a better pointing ability : 2.5m to 1.8m (standard versions).
Sailboat Jeanneau Yachts, Jeanneau 57 - Jeanneau Yard
MOODY 54 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

That Jeanneau 57 had not a cuter rig since the two sails were not brought to different points of the mast and therefore could have a more simplified and easy to use rig, but the result is the same: A smaller sail for heavier weather. This was the boat, a brand new one.



By the way, you say your boat till 13k apparent will need to use a code 0, a sail that doesn't give a good pointing ability while on my boat with that wind I will be making well over 7K very close to the wind and well over 8K on the minimum angles you could use that code 0.

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..But looking at normal series built boats, my favorite so far is the HR64.
Yes, that one is a much faster than your boat, but if you really want a faster cruising boat of that size with top quality look at the New X6, to Gieffe yachts, to Comet, to Grand Soleil to Advanced yachts or even the new big Salona (even if the quality will be slightly less). If you light it heavier and slower, the Gunfleet is also relativelly fast.

I continue to say yours is a great boat, but not properly what we could call a fast cruiser for the size.
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Old 20-11-2014, 11:50   #1162
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Well I have a 13 year production boat and it isn't showing any age issues other than components and no hull/deck/rudder problems. On the other hand my last boat was a 1988 "higher" quality boat that was 20 years old when I rid of it and it was not holding up as well.

So I suspect for most current 10-15 year production boats you just keep sailing them another 10-15 years!

You have any more silly questions like this?
You are 99% of your time docked in a marina my 2 cents, the rest posting no sense in this fórum so i dont take any of your quotes seriously , seems to me you are still confused..
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Old 20-11-2014, 12:03   #1163
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by cpa View Post
A high end / high quality boat will have a life span that will outlive its owner.....
You don't need that, any mass production boat bought by a 45 year old guy will outlive his owner, or at least the age where he would be able to sail it
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Old 20-11-2014, 12:03   #1164
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Oh I've been tossed around in cabins offshore many times. This is the cabin of a Pearson 365 in one of our off-shore races - with one of the 5 crew tucked in and me heading down for some sleep too...



We had lee cloths on that boat (both settees) and were very comfy. But you can see that the "proper" seaberth to starboard is full of gear. Not used.

Here I am at the helm of a Pacific Seacraft 37 on which we did a 300 mile off-shore race (and 300 mile return) with 6 crew...



This boat had a dinette table lowered to starboard (we used cushions for support) and a settee to port (much like my Hunter's config). And if I recall, that port settee didn't have a lee cloth at that time - and it sucked because we were on a port tack most of the time. The aft quarter-berth was full of gear, so we also used a cramped v-berth.

Personally, while doing watches, I can sleep anywhere...on the cabin sole, on top of sails in the v-berth, whatever. So I'm not picky.

But I definitely like having stuff around me to hold me in place. And I, like others, insist on making my own boat as comfortable for everyone as I can. It lets you relax off-watch...well as much as you can with a few hours of downtime before you have to suit up again.
Good picture, to point that its not the same 600 miles A to B than a 3000 miles ocean passage, well in theory yes but its really diferent, im with you when you say you can sleep anywhere in the off wacht , but trust me after 15 days or less at sea you see things diferent, take this for example, im a fit guy, and honestly i can digest a lot, but when the weather change and the boat motion change you start to be really tired and in need for proper rest, happen to me after 4 long days sailing in winds ranging from 35 to 40 ,everybody try to get good rest in the bunks, i call it safety, tired you are useless , in the cokpit sooner or later you get tired..

In the past when i made some deliverys, one rule for me is to send the crew in the offwacht to take rest in their bunks , i dont want no one in the cockpit with me or my wacht partner , but is just me, others in their own .
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Old 20-11-2014, 12:08   #1165
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Oh I've been tossed around in cabins offshore many times. This is the cabin of a Pearson 365 in one of our off-shore races - with one of the 5 crew tucked in and me heading down for some sleep too...



We had lee cloths on that boat (both settees) and were very comfy. But you can see that the "proper" seaberth to starboard is full of gear. Not used.

Here I am at the helm of a Pacific Seacraft 37 on which we did a 300 mile off-shore race (and 300 mile return) with 6 crew...



This boat had a dinette table lowered to starboard (we used cushions for support) and a settee to port (much like my Hunter's config). And if I recall, that port settee didn't have a lee cloth at that time - and it sucked because we were on a port tack most of the time. The aft quarter-berth was full of gear, so we also used a cramped v-berth.

Personally, while doing watches, I can sleep anywhere...on the cabin sole, on top of sails in the v-berth, whatever. So I'm not picky.

But I definitely like having stuff around me to hold me in place. And I, like others, insist on making my own boat as comfortable for everyone as I can. It lets you relax off-watch...well as much as you can with a few hours of downtime before you have to suit up again.
Now I am truly not trying to pull your chain but where is it that you guys race such slow boats?? I never associate the word race with either of these two but I'm sure they are nothing but fun.
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Old 20-11-2014, 12:16   #1166
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Now I am truly not trying to pull your chain but where is it that you guys race such slow boats?? I never associate the word race with either of these two but I'm sure they are nothing but fun.
Why, I thought you guys would be truly impressed. Aren't these venerable bluewater brands? The PSC just circumnavigated by the way. Oh, and we did very well in that Pearson. You just have to know how to sail it faster than the other boats.

But, at the end of the day, why do you think I bought a very comfy production boat that rates 96?
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Old 20-11-2014, 12:22   #1167
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Re: Rudder Failures

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I sail a lot upwind but you surely beat me. 3000 miles upwind on the summer? How many mile did you made on the last summer?
About 4000.

"Summer" included May, so it was four months, starting . I sailed from Southampton out of La Manche, crossed the North Sea, Kiel Canal, then complete transit of the Baltic from one end all the way to Russia, then spent two months cruising the South Coast of Finland, then all the way back.

During the trip from England to Finland there were freak NE winds during the entire month of May, or almost. Actually, most of the North Sea we had South winds, but the whole Baltic was NE.

Then on the way back they shifted back to the prevailing SW

It was really tough because I had blown out sails and a bottom covered with barnacles. I could not find a lift out in the Baltic for less than thousands (there is little fouling in that brackish water, so Baltic sailors don't come out of the water in the middle of the season).
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Old 20-11-2014, 12:25   #1168
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Re: Rudder Failures

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You don't need that, any mass production boat bought by a 45 year old guy will outlive his owner, or at least the age where he would be able to sail it
Don't say; my father is still single-handing at 86
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Old 20-11-2014, 12:32   #1169
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Re: Rudder Failures

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About 4000.

"Summer" included May, so it was four months, starting . I sailed from Southampton out of La Manche, crossed the North Sea, Kiel Canal, then complete transit of the Baltic from one end all the way to Russia, then spent two months cruising the South Coast of Finland, then all the way back.

During the trip from England to Finland there were freak NE winds during the entire month of May, or almost. Actually, most of the North Sea we had South winds, but the whole Baltic was NE.

Then on the way back they shifted back to the prevailing SW

It was really tough because I had blown out sails and a bottom covered with barnacles. I could not find a lift out in the Baltic for less than thousands (there is little fouling in that brackish water, so Baltic sailors don't come out of the water in the middle of the season).
Dude - that sounds like an incredible trip - but uphill both ways? Ouch.
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Old 20-11-2014, 12:36   #1170
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Re: Rudder Failures

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I thought you guys would be truly impressed. Aren't these venerable bluewater brands? The PSC just circumnavigated by the way. Oh, and did very well in that Pearson. You just have to know how to sail it faster than the other boats.

But, at the end of the day, why do you think I bought a very comfy production boat that rates 96?

Where is that rating from, New England? If it is the base rate that I see for a Hunter Legend 40.5 is 117 which is an OK rating but certainly not fast.
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