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Old 19-11-2014, 17:32   #1126
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Just wondering, where do you think the best place to install lee clothes on your Hunter would be?
On mine the forward pullman berth has lee clothes, but I use that mostly for keeping stuff from rolling off. Instead underway passage I drop the salon table and put the filler cushions in and throw extra pillows on it. No one is rolling out of that unless the boat heels more that 45 degrees.

I don't really understand why where would be a question of whether lee clothes could be installed on a boat just because it was a Hunter
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Old 19-11-2014, 18:10   #1127
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Painted Skies View Post
I've found this rudder discussion over the past month informative, but quite honestly, I could not quite manage to sift through all 75 pages of it. My apologies... This topic has definitely struck a chord with many folks – and from the pages I did read, there were many valid comments on the construction and design of modern rudders; IMHO, some of the best analysis was provided by UNCIVILIZED in the early posts of this thread.

Now, a story about a Tartan rudder:

Rudder failure is probably one of the most feared of all possible failures at sea – as it often results in the boat sinking. I am an engineer by education, and have lived/sailed aboard for the past 24 years - but that certainly doesn't make me any sort of expert on rudders... so I apologize in advance if I offend any of the experts in this forum. All I have to offer is real world experience with the rudder on our 1990 Tartan 412 in the hopes that it might help others, like us, who are simply cruisers and/or are looking to purchase a sailboat.

When we bought our Tartan in 2004, the boat had lived a pampered life – first on the Great Lakes where it sat for most of its first six years at the Tartan facility, having various work done on it - and being burglarized in the process (all the electronics were stolen). The owners we bought it from, used the boat sparingly out of Massachusetts each summer for a couple weeks and then had the mast removed each October, with the hull stored inside a shed. Hence, I don't believe it was an abused nor neglected boat.

Our surveyor for the purchase noted a crack that extended down the leading edge of the spade rudder, starting from the point where the fiberglass collar surrounds the rudder post (see photos with white arrows). It was oozing a bit of rust.

We sailed the boat home from Rhode Island in November, knowing that the rudder would need attention during the next haul-out. Over a winter of freezing and thawing at our dock on the Chesapeake Bay, the rudder separation enlarged and the rust from internal corrosion increased. By the next summer, we decided it was beyond repair (seawater had deteriorated the internal supports) and a new rudder was in order. We contacted the factory and placed an order (they still had the original mold). I think it was about 4 months later when it was ready, so we drove out to Ohio to pick it up. It wasn't actually ready; in fact, they had hardly started it. We went to visit family in NY and came back a week later when it was finally done. Then we tried to install it. It didn't fit.

The old rudder had been constructed from 3-inch stainless steel tubing with a tight diameter tolerance along its length; the replacement was built with 3-inch stainless steel pipe stock. Thus, the bearings would not slip over the rudder post. Of course, we called the factory for resolution and the problem fell on deaf ears. Twice, we delivered the rudder to a local machine shop to be machined into a range that fit the bearing ring and upper housing. Even with that resolved, the collar on the new rudder interfered with the hull entry point – and upon inspection of the old rudder we found that the Tartan factory had originally solved this problem by grinding down part of the original rudder to force a fit – obviously, no one at the factory had ever noted this on the engineering drawings. Configuration control, it is called – I don't think they knew the meaning of the concept.

For the next two years, the boat sat at the dock. Then in 2007 we sailed to the Bahamas and experienced a near-disaster in the remote Jumentos when in rough seas, the rudder post slipped almost out of the upper housing; later analysis revealed that the rudder post had been constructed 2 inches too short (rudder had to be removed, and 2 more inches of SS tubing welded in place).

Just three years after installation of the the new rudder (2008), a crack developed in the exact same place as the original rudder – down the leading edge of the rudder post collar. Fortunately, we caught the failure before we lost the rudder in some catastrophic manner. It was ground out, repaired and substantially reinforced before crossing the Pacific in 2009. During the most recent haul-out in Australia; the reinforced rudder displays no splitting nor rust issues.

I know, this is a long and sordid tale of bad rudder design, and bad manufacturing – by one of the supposed better production boat companies. We'd all like to think that modern manufacturing methods entail precise engineering specifications, exacting materials standards, and industry-mandated quality assurance. Think again. Unlike the automotive industry that has its watchdogs, product recalls and class action lawsuits, we as boat owners must rely on our own due diligence to recognize the earliest signs of failure in our vessel's systems and take steps to ameliorate them regardless of where the fault resides.
...
On the last years of manufacturing the problems with Tartan were more than many and yours story confirms that as well as the neglect to clients. That's why they went bankrupt while others succeed. The boat market his highly competitive and the ones that make boats with problems or don't stand by their products, sooner or later go bankrupt. Happened in Europe some years ago with Harmony yachts and the problems they had were not as serious as the ones on Tartan.
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Old 19-11-2014, 18:29   #1128
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
On mine the forward pullman berth has lee clothes, but I use that mostly for keeping stuff from rolling off. Instead underway passage I drop the salon table and put the filler cushions in and throw extra pillows on it. No one is rolling out of that unless the boat heels more that 45 degrees.

I don't really understand why where would be a question of whether lee clothes could be installed on a boat just because it was a Hunter
With a pullman berth (which I think is a wonderful set up), it is much easier than putting lee cloths in a Vberth (not sure how you would do that), and I can't imagine putting it on a center berth queen. On my boat, I can use the salon berths to set up lee cloths, as well as the quarterberth which naturally one doesn't need them.

BTW, the question was about his Hunter because that is what he has. I would ask the same question for any other brand of boat with a similar lay out.
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Old 19-11-2014, 18:57   #1129
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
With a pullman berth (which I think is a wonderful set up), it is much easier than putting lee cloths in a Vberth (not sure how you would do that), and I can't imagine putting it on a center berth queen. On my boat, I can use the salon berths to set up lee cloths, as well as the quarterberth which naturally one doesn't need them.

BTW, the question was about his Hunter because that is what he has. I would ask the same question for any other brand of boat with a similar lay out.
Be careful what you say about the lee cloths, someone can answer your question with a new beamy production boats dont heel more tan 5 degres thus they dont need lee cloths
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Old 19-11-2014, 18:59   #1130
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Be careful what you say about the lee cloths, someone can answer your question with a new beamy production boats dont heel more tan 5 degres thus they dont need lee cloths
Because they are so well suited for blue water, hence the lack of heel, right?
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Old 19-11-2014, 19:10   #1131
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Because they are so well suited for blue water, hence the lack of heel, right?

Bingo!! in any case i start to sailing without lee cloths until my first transat, in the way from Horta to Cadiz is when i realice i need something to hold my ass in my sleeping bag and stop rolling in the floor at every time the boat go sideways in huge seas, very anoying .... after that episode in Almeria /Spain a friendly couple from Uk working in a improvised sail loft in their boat made for me and my crew lee cloths,, since then i always carry lee cloths on board... very Handy and very important if you want to rest in your off wachts in tricky bunks..
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Old 19-11-2014, 19:17   #1132
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Re: Rudder Failures

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What year is your Tartan? Didn't they have a lot of problems with hulls cracking at some point?
If lots of problems is 1 or 2 boats total in their whole production run, then sure. This was much later than mine which is a 1987.
I researched the entire issue and it appears 1 or 2 hulls of same run had significant build issue. Emerged soon after build.
If you look at Tartan's overall body of work, tough to criticize quality at all. Not a Morris, but I wouldnt tie up that much capital in a boat at this point.


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Old 19-11-2014, 19:51   #1133
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Re: Rudder Failures

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It's a legitimate question. I have pondered the same with my boat, and actually came up with an answer. And quarterberths are a great substitute.
It certainly ain't rocket science.

I think the easiest way to answer questions like this is to let you read my comparison of my Hunter to a Shannon HERE. If you're objective about it, you'll see very little difference between the two in terms of "bluewater feature superiority".

To specifically answer your question, I run a line between mounted tie-downs from the bulkhead to the nav-station - about 12" above the cushions. This line runs through canvass screwed to to the settee seat frame that so that it creates a nice lee cloth that can be tucked under the cushion. To starboard, we lower the table, lash a couple of cusions together and tie them to the compression post to keep them in place. Very comfy. Add the v-berth (why do you need lee cloths in a v-berth?) and you've got off-shore sleeping arrangements for 4, or even 5 in a pinch.

I'm also working on ideas for my aft centerline queen. That's the most comfortable spot on the boat. We'll see.
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Old 19-11-2014, 19:52   #1134
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
On mine the forward pullman berth has lee clothes, but I use that mostly for keeping stuff from rolling off. Instead underway passage I drop the salon table and put the filler cushions in and throw extra pillows on it. No one is rolling out of that unless the boat heels more that 45 degrees.

I don't really understand why where would be a question of whether lee clothes could be installed on a boat just because it was a Hunter
I thought the same thing. But we must be very patient with these people. Old ways dies hard.

Heh-heh.
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Old 20-11-2014, 02:10   #1135
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
It certainly ain't rocket science.

I think the easiest way to answer questions like this is to let you read my comparison of my Hunter to a Shannon HERE. If you're objective about it, you'll see very little difference between the two in terms of "bluewater feature superiority".

To specifically answer your question, I run a line between mounted tie-downs from the bulkhead to the nav-station - about 12" above the cushions. This line runs through canvass screwed to to the settee seat frame that so that it creates a nice lee cloth that can be tucked under the cushion. To starboard, we lower the table, lash a couple of cusions together and tie them to the compression post to keep them in place. Very comfy. Add the v-berth (why do you need lee cloths in a v-berth?) and you've got off-shore sleeping arrangements for 4, or even 5 in a pinch.

I'm also working on ideas for my aft centerline queen. That's the most comfortable spot on the boat. We'll see.
Wow, Smack...whats happening my friend?

Now you are comparing your boat to Shannons and Morris's?? Look bud your boat is just fine and for your intended purposes and budget a pretty decent choice so go sailing and just enjoy it. It really is not necessary to keep reinforcing your decisions.
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Old 20-11-2014, 03:02   #1136
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Re: Rudder Failures

Was enjoying a little break from “boat jobs” and noticed a Danish flagged X Yacht about 45 feet approaching our dock. Helped him dock and later the four of us got together for a visit. Turns out he’s headed in the same direction as us so we had lots to talk about. Of course sailing is always number one topic and I find out he is a respected journalist and a top racer who writes exclusively about sailing in 4 different countries. What a great job, he tours all the plants, races on some of the coolest boats made all over the place and much of his work can be done while he is on his boat. It just doesn’t get better than that in my mind.
Anyways we got around to talking about construction and whether the newer methods are better or worse than the older methods. He thought for a couple of seconds and said, you have to understand how the process works. It does not start with the design or the specifications; it starts with the marketing dept deciding on the size and the selling price. Every decision revolves around the selling price. The designer is given a brief and the price point and he designs to that price point, the construction builds to that price point, everything from beginning to end is based on price. Every part of the boat is looked at and when the process is over if they have not met the price guidelines the boat will not be built so there is huge pressure on everyone involved to get the price down. He said the competition is fierce and there are builders now from other countries starting to enter the scene so no one can let their guard down. I asked him what he thought about the current quality standards. He simply said it was accepted knowledge within the industry that the newer B’s J’s etc. boats are not as well built as their predecessors, he gave me several examples of broken boats and less than stellar quality but he finished with, generally they are built well enough to do the job they were intended for. He was pretty high on a variety of better built boats but reminded me that you really have to pay for them. He told me he has had friends that sailed their lower cost production boats around the world but several of them had many problems that required extensive refits. I asked him if he would sail a new B or J or H around the world and he said, it depends, if that’s all I could afford then yes I would because I love sailing but if there was any way to own a better built boat he would take it. I asked him about his views on gluing or tabbing bulkheads, he laughed and said mine are tabbed but now many are glued. Again he thinks gluing looks after 95% of the buyers and it is much much cheaper. I asked him what boat he would like to own other than his X Yacht...Don’t read this Polux..I love the Pogo’s, I would like to own one, was his answer.
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Old 20-11-2014, 05:49   #1137
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Just wondering, where do you think the best place to install lee clothes on your Hunter would be?
Plexus is more secure than lee clothes.

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Old 20-11-2014, 05:50   #1138
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Was enjoying a little break from “boat jobs” and noticed a Danish flagged X Yacht about 45 feet approaching our dock. Helped him dock and later the four of us got together for a visit. Turns out he’s headed in the same direction as us so we had lots to talk about. Of course sailing is always number one topic and I find out he is a respected journalist and a top racer who writes exclusively about sailing in 4 different countries. What a great job, he tours all the plants, races on some of the coolest boats made all over the place and much of his work can be done while he is on his boat. It just doesn’t get better than that in my mind.
Anyways we got around to talking about construction and whether the newer methods are better or worse than the older methods. He thought for a couple of seconds and said, you have to understand how the process works. It does not start with the design or the specifications; it starts with the marketing dept deciding on the size and the selling price. Every decision revolves around the selling price. The designer is given a brief and the price point and he designs to that price point, the construction builds to that price point, everything from beginning to end is based on price. Every part of the boat is looked at and when the process is over if they have not met the price guidelines the boat will not be built so there is huge pressure on everyone involved to get the price down. He said the competition is fierce and there are builders now from other countries starting to enter the scene so no one can let their guard down. I asked him what he thought about the current quality standards. He simply said it was accepted knowledge within the industry that the newer B’s J’s etc. boats are not as well built as their predecessors, he gave me several examples of broken boats and less than stellar quality but he finished with, generally they are built well enough to do the job they were intended for. He was pretty high on a variety of better built boats but reminded me that you really have to pay for them. He told me he has had friends that sailed their lower cost production boats around the world but several of them had many problems that required extensive refits. I asked him if he would sail a new B or J or H around the world and he said, it depends, if that’s all I could afford then yes I would because I love sailing but if there was any way to own a better built boat he would take it. I asked him about his views on gluing or tabbing bulkheads, he laughed and said mine are tabbed but now many are glued. Again he thinks gluing looks after 95% of the buyers and it is much much cheaper. I asked him what boat he would like to own other than his X Yacht...Don’t read this Polux..I love the Pogo’s, I would like to own one, was his answer.
Great post and what that guy says makes sense. He is certainly a knowledgeable guy and it is not for accident that he cruises on an 50 X yacht and would like to own a Pogo. Off course that means he is one of those that likes to cruise and sail fast and his options are not the options that probably most would choose. They are the options of a good sailor that certainly likes as much sailing as cruising and liking sailing, for most, is liking to go fast.

Regarding what he says regarding the quality of older boats it is good to remember that mass production boats were never as inexpensive as they are now and off course, boats are build to a budget, but I believe that the relation price/quality is now better than before. If you want better quality you can always buy a more expensive boat. Talking about mass production boats with a better quality, Salona 33, 38 and 44 were nominated by sail magazine for best boat of the year, saluting the coming of the brand to the US market. They could have nominated the entire line.

Seriously, look at the brand new Salona 38, not the one that was nominated, on my blog. A gorgeous boat.
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Old 20-11-2014, 06:17   #1139
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Be careful what you say about the lee cloths, someone can answer your question with a new beamy production boats dont heel more tan 5 degres thus they dont need lee cloths
Certainly a boat that sails with 14º degrees of heel is a lot more comfortable than one that sails with 25º degrees of heel in what regards sleeping and i have tried both types. The solutions for that depend from boat to boat and many don't even need them since most of boats are used for coastal cruising and most don't sail at night so it would not make much sense a mass production boat coming prepared for a thing most would not use.

For the ones that sail at night each boat is a case but with some creativity a solution will be found. On mine at first I thought it would be a problem but after all the solution was very easy and effective: I just need to take away the back of the seats (that is needed to make a bigger "bed") and put them between the saloon table and the seat. It works very well.

But anyway at night I sail solo (my wife does not like it and says that if I want to do it, I want to do it alone) so I prefer to sleep on the cockpit, on the bottom of it inside a sleeping bag. Anyway I have to check it out each 20 minutes or so and in the end it is more comfortableto be outside than on the inside. Regarding the sleeping space to use on passage, for me, more important than a comfortable space for sleeping on the interior, that I don't use, is a comfortable space on the cockpit and that means for me a space with at least 1.90m to lay down. I have that on my boat but most older boats have not cockpits that long (40ft boats) and many modern ones have not removable cockpit tables and that makes them useless for that (but they have the space on the cockpit settees, even if it is not as comfortable).

For me what I would look first in what regards a place to sleep at night while on passage would be that cockpit space between the cockpit settees. The best boats regarding that are the ones where the cockpit table disappears under the cockpit floor. That is a thing I look carefully when I am choosing a boat for me.
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Old 20-11-2014, 06:53   #1140
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Re: Rudder Failures

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...
A yacht broker once told me – 'Most boat manufacturers build their vessels for the first owners, and those buyers typically will only own it for 3 years and then move up.' The implication was: boat builders don't make them to last because they don't have to; that is not where the money is... and this is particularly true of many modern 'Clorox-bottles' that are built to be inexpensive to purchase, fast on the water, glamorous-looking on the pages of 'Cruising World' and super-profitable for the builders and brokers.
You have a point here, but a boat not designed to last 40 years are not necessarily a bad choice. The same happens with cars. They simply would be obsolete long before that.

Regarding the point you made, even if valid, it is a bit exaggerated, yes, some exchange new boats each 3 years, if they can, but they are a minority, the average of the ones that buy new boats (and have the money for it) buy them between 5 and 8 years. That age makes sense because it is the time a boat begins to need maintenance, like change of the sail drive seal, substitution of the rig, new electronics, change of sails and a time where the difference in performance (not only sailing) and interior comfort is clearly apparent regarding new models. Even the ones that thought they had bought the perfect boat for live, at the end of 8 years will probably find something they like more and if they have the money and the passion, why not buy a better boat and one they like more and is better for the sailing they do?

But you are right: manufacturers don't care about the live of boats after 10 years as a priority regarding directly clients but for a question of image they have to care. I mean, suppose that all Beneteaus with more than 20 years started to have major problems, structural problems. Even if a boat with 20 years means very little to the guys that buy new boats, the Brand image would be so damaged that even those would buy another brand.

The duration of a boat over 20 years says little to the ones that buy new boats because they will not have them more than 10 years and even the ones that will buy them for live generally only will buy them at 50 years of age or later and they don't see them sailing at over 70 years of age.

Regarding all that subject here you have a very curious article by an American NA. The article is 15 years old and many things changed: Europeans are buying more new boats and I believe the Americans too, but the recycling problem become bigger.

http://www.wastexchange.org/upload_p...gDeadBoats.pdf
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