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Old 18-11-2014, 10:09   #1066
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Funny how Americans that like old shoes say badly about what is the American Brand with more success along the years simply because it makes modern boats. Many American brands bankrupt or almost don't sale boats while Jboats is the only one that has a factory in Europe and sell lots of boats there. Off course all that because they sell expensive boats with lots of problems
You guys will argue about anything! Maybe you all just need some beer

J-boats are a bad example and don't prove anything one way or the other. We were talking about cruising boats, and J-boats are not cruising boats. They are very light weight racing boats, I don't say cruiser/racer because the cruising capability of most of them is a lot less than something like a Bene First.

Of course they have structural problems -- you couldn't win races with them if they didn't push the structure to the max. They are not very expensive, so in the strong-light-cheap tradeoff, strong is what suffers-- the minimum amount of reasonable cost material required to get the job done. They are not made to bash for thousands of miles a year through heavy weather for decades on end, the way cruisers around here treat their boats.

They are really great boats -- really excellent for their specific purpose, which is to go fast as hell for a very accessible price. They are extremely popular here in Cowes and the Solent, the Urheimat of sail racing, probably the most common racer today around here.
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Old 18-11-2014, 10:15   #1067
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Is your doggedly determined defense of European designed & built boats influenced by their country or region of origin? And what makes you think new boat buyers make rational decisions? Isn't it all too often more about whether the boat is "fast," "looks like" a racing boat, or has all sorts of amenities below? Wealthy or not, I would think these factors are much more dominant amongst new boat buyers vs. rudder configurations or how bulkheads are installed. I also think this more likely accounts for the success of certain brands over others, not the supposed higher quality of new construction processes, materials, or designs as you (and SmackDaddy) claim.

But then again I've never been one for putting that much stock in sales brochures & videos, whether it's for a boat or a tube of Plexus. I'd rather listen to the pros who repair, upgrade & maintain them, as opposed to marketing people or even engineers, architects & designers who justifiably may have other factors to take into account (e.g. cost, amenities, appearance) than quality of workmanship & sound nautical design.
As for the bolded part. I think you nailed that one on the head.

As for me touting the higher quality of "new construction processes, materials, or designs" - I'm not really doing that per se. What I'm doing is looking into claims from those who say that these things are "dangerous" or "not suited for bluewater cruising" or "not proper construction" or whatever.

When people make categorical statements like that - statements that clearly fly in the face of what the large majority of boat builders are actually doing - I challenge them - AND always try to provide clear evidence of why. But, I also definitely have an open mind about it. As I said earlier, Neil's pics of that failed bond in the Bene are very compelling. I'd love to know more about that. If it's a common occurrence, that's a serious problem.

So, I'm not hyping Plexus or anything else. But there is a lot of evidence out there that traditional tabbing is NOT the only or even best way to do things - and the use of adhesives is definitely on the rise. Now, you are welcome to listen to whomever you want for your boat buying advice. I'll just keep listening, researching, and challenging so I can learn.
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Old 18-11-2014, 10:20   #1068
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Its because Jboats have lots of keel and rudder problems in the past, dont mix Americans with this topic please, make no sense, lots of well crafted USA boats are sailing around the world , without mention the NA genius from the past or present like S&S, Ted Hood, Perry designs, maybe they are bankrupt because they dont want to make piles of dogshit and instead they choose to close doors?
It was not me that was bashing American boats and the American brand that is more respected in Europe. I have a big respect for Jboats and certainly they are very well built and have been continuously upgrading their building techniques. I only have mentioned them because their more recent building upgrade seems to be related with the use of new bonding agents, namely on the glued main bulkheads.
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Old 18-11-2014, 10:23   #1069
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
You guys will argue about anything! Maybe you all just need some beer

J-boats are a bad example and don't prove anything one way or the other. We were talking about cruising boats, and J-boats are not cruising boats. They are very light weight racing boats, I don't say cruiser/racer because the cruising capability of most of them is a lot less than something like a Bene First.

Of course they have structural problems -- you couldn't win races with them if they didn't push the structure to the max. They are not very expensive, so in the strong-light-cheap tradeoff, strong is what suffers-- the minimum amount of reasonable cost material required to get the job done. They are not made to bash for thousands of miles a year through heavy weather for decades on end, the way cruisers around here treat their boats.

They are really great boats -- really excellent for their specific purpose, which is to go fast as hell for a very accessible price. They are extremely popular here in Cowes and the Solent, the Urheimat of sail racing, probably the most common racer today around here.
+1....
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Old 18-11-2014, 10:25   #1070
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
You guys will argue about anything! Maybe you all just need some beer

J-boats are a bad example and don't prove anything one way or the other. We were talking about cruising boats, and J-boats are not cruising boats. They are very light weight racing boats, I don't say cruiser/racer because the cruising capability of most of them is a lot less than something like a Bene First.

Of course they have structural problems -- you couldn't win races with them if they didn't push the structure to the max. They are not very expensive, so in the strong-light-cheap tradeoff, strong is what suffers-- the minimum amount of reasonable cost material required to get the job done. They are not made to bash for thousands of miles a year through heavy weather for decades on end, the way cruisers around here treat their boats.

They are really great boats -- really excellent for their specific purpose, which is to go fast as hell for a very accessible price. They are extremely popular here in Cowes and the Solent, the Urheimat of sail racing, probably the most common racer today around here.
That's the first time that I have heard that a jboat is not expensive
I guess that you really don't are much up to date with modern boat prices.

Not much up to date with Jboats also. They always made two lines, one of race boats and other of performance cruising boats and as cruising boats they have sailed all around the world. It is funny how Americans tend to look at Jboats as only racing boats. Maybe that's why the J122 is only made in Europe, just because much more Europeans would buy that as a cruising boat compared to Americans. I was very interested on that boat as a cruiser and at the time I did not get one because, made in Europe and all, it was very expensive. I guess we have to pay for a top building quality.

Look at the interior of a J122 and tell me how can somebody say this is a racing boat?

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Old 18-11-2014, 10:30   #1071
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
without mention the NA genius from the past or present like S&S, Ted Hood, Perry designs, maybe they are bankrupt because they dont want to make piles of dogshit and instead they choose to close doors?
While Sparkman and the Stevens brothers died of old age, their design firm is still very active. Ted Hood was a bit of a one-man show, so his design firm went down because of his death, not bankruptcy - although his nephew branched out into his own. Bob Perry is neither dead nor bankrupt. If he isn't as prolific as in the past, that is most likely because he is enjoying other aspects of life.

Hood was the only one who actually built boats.

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Old 18-11-2014, 10:30   #1072
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Re: Rudder Failures

So Smack, lets say you have a Honda Civic, you drive the car to the dealers workshop for repairs, the mechanic explain to you that the injectors are faulty designed by Honda and they have lots of claims about that, he try to explain to you that the XXX Brand injector from another diferent manufacture is better, so then your answer its something like i dont believe you because i dont see any fact and please use the honda injector, well sounds silly sorry , bad example, but if Minaret , a pro in boat repair bussines with years dealing with boats tell you that metacrilate glue is not the right stuff for this purpose , you instead in be open minded and listen to a pro who is selling you a advice for free , throw away the advice and argue about some links you found in the net saying the contrary....

When you visit the dentist you argue too with the doc about this or that?
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Old 18-11-2014, 10:32   #1073
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
When you visit the dentist you argue too with the doc about this or that?
In the US medical system, if you don't go in prepared and willing to argue, you are rolling the dice…

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Old 18-11-2014, 10:57   #1074
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
While Sparkman and the Stevens brothers died of old age, their design firm is still very active. Ted Hood was a bit of a one-man show, so his design firm went down because of his death, not bankruptcy - although his nephew branched out into his own. Bob Perry is neither dead nor bankrupt. If he isn't as prolific as in the past, that is most likely because he is enjoying other aspects of life.

Hood was the only one who actually built boats.

Mark
Has Ted Hood died? If so, it must be fairly recent.
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Old 18-11-2014, 11:00   #1075
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
That's the first time that I have heard that a jboat is not expensive
I guess that you really don't are much up to date with modern boat prices.

Not much up to date with Jboats also. They always made two lines, one of race boats and other of performance cruising boats and as cruising boats they have sailed all around the world. It is funny how Americans tend to look at Jboats as only racing boats. Maybe that's why the J122 is only made in Europe, just because much more Europeans would buy that as a cruising boat compared to Americans. I was very interested on that boat as a cruiser and at the time I did not get one because, made in Europe and all, it was very expensive. I guess we have to pay for a top building quality.

Look at the interior of a J122 and tell me how can somebody say this is a racing boat?

How did I guess, that whatever was posted, you would argue with it?


First of all: There are maybe one of those made for every 20 J105's.

Secondly: Even the J122 is more racing than cruising. Compare it to the Bene First -- even the Bene First 40 Carbon Edition is only a couple of CW lighter. It displaces less than seven tons. Even J/boats don't call it a cruiser.

That lightness is one of key elements of its speed. It is achieved with a spartan fitout and light construction.

It does have a resin-infused balsa core -- and they were one of the first to use vacuum-infusion, the gold standard for balsa composites to this day. I think the same yard built all of the wonderful Dashew Sundeers, using the same SCRIMP method for the balsa cores.
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Old 18-11-2014, 11:21   #1076
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Has Ted Hood died? If so, it must be fairly recent.
He died a bit over a year ago.

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Old 18-11-2014, 12:32   #1077
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
How did I guess, that whatever was posted, you would argue with it?


First of all: There are maybe one of those made for every 20 J105's.

Secondly: Even the J122 is more racing than cruising. Compare it to the Bene First -- even the Bene First 40 Carbon Edition is only a couple of CW lighter. It displaces less than seven tons. Even J/boats don't call it a cruiser.

That lightness is one of key elements of its speed. It is achieved with a spartan fitout and light construction.

It does have a resin-infused balsa core -- and they were one of the first to use vacuum-infusion, the gold standard for balsa composites to this day. I think the same yard built all of the wonderful Dashew Sundeers, using the same SCRIMP method for the balsa cores.
As i have said a line of performance cruisers and a line of racers, it has been like that for decades. Those ones are also racers? Or performance cruisers?






Not all like to cruise in an heavy slow boat even if comfortable. in what regards cruising there are many tastes and the J cruisers offer a lot of comfort for performance cruisers.

About the smaller of those two (posted above) Sail Magazine wrote:"when you find the right boat, you know it." The new J/46 is proving to be the right boat for many. She excels in detailed examinations of safety, comfort, performance, seakindliness under way, systems, quality of construction, materials, finish, value for the money, as well as intangibles like aesthetics, pride of ownership & all-around fun. "

and Sailing world said about it: "The new J/46, flagship of the 2000 Sailing World BOTY fleet was awarded "Best in Class" and recognized for excellence in sailboat design and construction. Judges praised her sailing qualities and refined quality construction. "Sailing the J/46 confirmed quickly for us that it's a beautiful, well tooled cruising yacht with the balanced responsiveness of a performance racer. The J/46 is first-class all around."

These look like "cheap" boats to you? or racing ones?

Today J boatsdon't make anything bigger than the J133 but they continue to have a cruising line and a racing line and there are boats on the cruising line that are not even appropriated for club racing.

Today the Jboats performance cruising line boats are these: J97, J108, J109, J122 and the old J133 that is an already old model. Most of these boats, as my own boat, can do well racing, but they are not racing boats and have great cruising interiors with excellent quality. They don't sell more because they are very expensive, much more than a Salona or an Elan, about as much as an Xyacht.

Anyway I was talking about Jboats as a Brand and that includes not only recent boats but his history as a shipyard.
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Old 18-11-2014, 12:33   #1078
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Re: Rudder Failures

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He died a bit over a year ago.

Mark
OK, thanks. I had not heard.
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Old 18-11-2014, 12:47   #1079
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Re: Rudder Failures

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In the US medical system, if you don't go in prepared and willing to argue, you are rolling the dice…

Mark
Haha , ok i get it, true.......
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Old 18-11-2014, 13:03   #1080
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
As i have said a line of performance cruisers and a line of racers, it has been like that for decades. Those ones are also racers? Or performance cruisers?






Not all like to cruise in an heavy slow boat even if comfortable. in what regards cruising there are many tastes and the J cruisers offer a lot of comfort for performance cruisers.

About the smaller of those two (posted above) Sail Magazine wrote:"when you find the right boat, you know it." The new J/46 is proving to be the right boat for many. She excels in detailed examinations of safety, comfort, performance, seakindliness under way, systems, quality of construction, materials, finish, value for the money, as well as intangibles like aesthetics, pride of ownership & all-around fun. "

and Sailing world said about it: "The new J/46, flagship of the 2000 Sailing World BOTY fleet was awarded "Best in Class" and recognized for excellence in sailboat design and construction. Judges praised her sailing qualities and refined quality construction. "Sailing the J/46 confirmed quickly for us that it's a beautiful, well tooled cruising yacht with the balanced responsiveness of a performance racer. The J/46 is first-class all around."

These look like "cheap" boats to you? or racing ones?

Today J boatsdon't make anything bigger than the J133 but they continue to have a cruising line and a racing line and there are boats on the cruising line that are not even appropriated for club racing.

Today the Jboats performance cruising line boats are these: J97, J108, J109, J122 and the old J133 that is an already old model. Most of these boats, as my own boat, can do well racing, but they are not racing boats and have great cruising interiors with excellent quality. They don't sell more because they are very expensive, much more than a Salona or an Elan, about as much as an Xyacht.

Anyway I was talking about Jboats as a Brand and that includes not only recent boats but his history as a shipyard.
J/Boats don't sell anything which they call a cruiser or a "performance cruiser". The J122 is sold by them as a "cruiser/racer", the same category into which they put the hugely popular one-design J109:

SPORT
j70 j80 j88 j111
CRUISER RACER
j97 j108 j109 J122E j133
DAY SAILOR
j95 j100

J Composite - Home

No one says it's not fun to cruise in such a boat. On the contrary, I think it would be great fun! Or even better, a Dragonfly! But those are not cruising boats in any normal sense of the word. The J122 is more than 2 tons lighter than the Frers Swan 40!

I do agree that any kind of cruising in a slow boat is no fun. Not if you either (a) like to sail; and/or (b) like to actually get somewhere, under sail, and upwind if necessary. But you can achieve speed either by choosing a light racy boat like one of these, or a Bene First, etc., or by choosing a larger boat with longer waterline. The latter was my choice of how to achieve this.
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