Rudder Failures

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

That's a nice picture. What boat is that and when was it built?

I'll let you figure it out, I'm cashing in as well. Polux you have had some great posts and I certainly learned some new information about some of the newer boats however the entry level boats are still the same polyester FG that has been used since the 60's except thinner laminates and the use of hull liners and other than electronics about the only thing new are the designs and the use of Plexus in places that used to be glassed. Our 2 boat builders added lots of good info as well, so hats off to them. Also enjoyed reading all the other posters info.

[neilpride]

And the answer is i dont know since troughbolting a bulkhead is a rare way to secure a bulkhead and maybe the most extreme technic, tabbing alone is enough in most cases but ohh well some builders want to improve and be sure that a bulkhead never ever can shift or get dislodged.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by neilpride

And the answer is i dont know since troughbolting a bulkhead is a rare way to secure a bulkhead and maybe the most extreme technic, tabbing alone is enough in most cases but ohh well some builders want to improve and be sure that a bulkhead never ever can shift or get dislodged.

Thanks. That's what I figured. Though it might be "the best way to do it" - nobody, at least in the modern cruising boat industry, seems to be doing it. So it's useless to this conversation about modern building methods...unless the goal is to continue to point people toward buying old boats.

As we've discussed, and as Paulo has pointed out repeatedly, the common methods are bonding and tabbing - or bonding alone. And bonding is definitely on the rise.

And robert, if you really expect me to believe that the photo you posted is a modern yacht being built, sorry. I don't blame you for not wanting to answer my question. It would just make you look sillier.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Im sorry Paulo but i disagre, Hanse laminate all the bulkheads , the only bulkhead glassed to the deck is the main bulkhead i think this is your point, or at least this is what they say in the oficial website , brochures. And i guess is updated..

Maybe you have a link or picture, we have a Hanse in the boatyard maybe worth to ask the owner, by the way the Hanse Factory tour, showing bulkheads laminated to the hull, if is the latest or not, i dont know.

Sometimes you can be very annoying. Why do you not verify carefully what you say when somebody says that you are not right? I said that Hanse laminated all the bulkheads till some years ago. Now only laminates the main one on the new designs.

The video you posted is from 2010. the information that I quoted from Hanse saying that they bond bulkheads is from 2013. There they say generically that they bond the bulkheads, I had the care to say that they still laminate the main, because I know that is the case. I try to be as factual and correct as I can. Why don't you have a look at the technically files of each boat that they produce on their site?

There you will see that the older models in production, like the 415 say "Bulkheads laminated to hull" while on brand new models like the 505 they say: "Main bulkhead laminated to hull and deck" not mentioning nothing about the others bulkheads while again on the older 575 they are very specific about that: "Bulkheads laminated to hull (main bulkhead laminated to hull and deck)".

That and this 2013 document from Hanse:
" the bulkheads of a Hanse are structurally bonded to the hull which provides greatly improved strength and stiffness"
http://www.hanseyachts.co.uk/pdf/2013-04-10_085540.pdf
Clearly indicates that they changed methods regarding bulkheads, even on bigger more expensive boats and the fact they indicate it only by omission means that even if they acknowledge that the new method is at least as safe as the first one (and therefore they use it) it is yet regarded on the public opinion negatively, so they say nothing about it, when before they were very clear in stating that all bulkheads were laminated (for the positive image that had). Positive or negative image counts only for publicity and has nothing to do with efficiency.

Here regarding the information Hanse provided for a test sail regarding the 505 (then they have to say they use bonded bulkheads):
Hanse 505 sail test - "Bulkheads are bonded to the hull sides and deck for increased stiffnes"
Hanse 505: Review and test | Sailing Today

As I have said previously the Dehler, that is made by Hanse, but is a more expensive boat, has also bulkheads bonded to the hull: "GRP vacuum infusion sandwich construction with foam core for strength and isolation Supporting bulkheads bonded to the hull.."(Dehler 38 41 and 45)

As I said I believe that main bulkhead is bonded and laminated to the hull and that is also what are doing Bavaria on new boats (sure about the bonded bulkheads and about a laminated main. I find probable a bonding and lamination on the main because I saw that on some boats and I saw Dehler refer to it somewhere and besides it makes sense).

As you can see it is pretty much a global picture, I mean regarding the increased number of bonded bulkheads even on expensive boats like the Dehler 45.

Can I go now

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Thanks. That's what I figured. Though it might be "the best way to do it" - nobody, at least in the modern cruising boat industry, seems to be doing it. So it's useless to this conversation...unless the goal is to continue to point people toward buying old boats.

As we've discussed, and as Paulo has pointed out repeatedly, the common methods are bonding and tabbing - or bonding alone. And bonding is definitely on the rise.

And robert, if you really expect me to believe that the photo you posted is a modern yacht being built, sorry. I don't blame you for not wanting to answer my question. It would just make you look sillier.

Nobody do it because regular tabbing is enough, a boat with troughbolted bulkheads speak really well for the Brand or who build the boat, and frankly dude , not you or me know if there is still somebuilder doing that way, probably custom boats, my bet...

On the rise on the rock, sure builders like Bene , Jean, or X Brand are using tons of glue for their boats, but not in the hig scale of quality boats,, if they use plexus they use Fg to, if they use Fg alone cool, if the use both metods cool, but they dont use glue alone for their boats.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Polux

Sometimes you can be very annoying. Why do you not verify carefully what you say when somebody says that you are not right? I said that Hanse laminated all the bulkheads till some years ago. Now only laminates the main one on the new designs.

The video you posted is from 2010. the information that I quoted from Hanse saying that they bond bulkheads is from 2013. There they say generically that they bond the bulkheads, I had the care to say that they still laminate the main, because I know that is the case. I try to be as factual and correct as I can. Why don't you have a look at the technically files of each boat that they produce on their site?

There you will see that the older models in production, like the 415 say "Bulkheads laminated to hull" while on brand new models like the 505 they say: "Main bulkhead laminated to hull and deck" not mentioning nothing about the others bulkheads while again on the older 575 they are very specific about that: "Bulkheads laminated to hull (main bulkhead laminated to hull and deck)".

That and this 2013 document from Hanse:
" the bulkheads of a Hanse are structurally bonded to the hull which provides greatly improved strength and stiffness"
http://www.hanseyachts.co.uk/pdf/2013-04-10_085540.pdf
Clearly indicates that they changed methods regarding bulkheads, even on bigger more expensive boats and the fact they indicate it only by omission means that even if they acknowledge that the new method is at least as safe as the first one (and therefore they use it) it is steel regarded in public opinion negatively, so they say nothing about it, when before they were very clear in stating that all bulkheads were laminated (for the positive image that had). Positive or negative image counts only for publicity and has nothing to do with efficiency.

Here regarding the information Hanse provided for a test sail regarding the 505 (then they have to say they use bonded bulkheads):
Hanse 505 sail test - "Bulkheads are bonded to the hull sides and deck for increased stiffnes"
Hanse 505: Review and test | Sailing Today

As I have said previously the Dehler, that is made by Hanse, but is a more expensive boat, has also bulkheads bonded to the hull: "GRP vacuum infusion sandwich construction with foam core for strength and isolation Supporting bulkheads bonded to the hull.."(Dehler 38 41 and 45)

As I said I believe that main bulkhead is bonded and laminated to the hull and that is also what are doing Bavaria on new boats (sure about the bonded bulkheads and about a laminated main. I find probable a bonding and lamination on the main because I saw that on some boats and I saw Dehler refer to it somewhere and besides it makes sense.

As you can see it is pretty much a global picture, I mean regarding the increased number of bonded bulkheads even on expensive boats like the Dehler 45.

Can I go now

Yah sure, maybe you think im a big stupid boy and dont know what i say 5 post ago, i told you just post a link, because the actual brochures talk for laminated bulkheads and the main glased to the deck, i remind you that many builders mention bonded as laminated to, just figúrate why the hell choose to just Fg the main bulkhead and glue the rest?? humm.

Is the main bulkhead more important than the bow bulkhead??

Seems to me you are a vicious of net brochures , do you have any proof or link or pic to claim actual 2014 hanses have the bulkheads just glued? in that case i shut up and apologize, if not keep your facts straight...
Sorry Pólux

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Yah sure, maybe you think im a big stupid boy and dont know what i say 5 post ago, i told you just post a link, because the actual brochures talk for laminated bulkheads and the main glased to the deck, i remind you that many builders mention bonded as laminated to, just figúrate why the hell choose to just Fg the main bulkhead and glue the rest?? humm.

Is the main bulkhead more important than the bow bulkhead??

Seems to me you are a vicious of net brochures , do you have any proof or link or pic to claim actual 2014 hanses have the bulkheads just glued? in that case i shut up and apologize, if not keep your facts straight...
Sorry Pólux

I think Polux is providing plenty of evidence to back up his claims. If you want to back up yours, you need to do the same.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

I'll let you figure it out, I'm cashing in as well. Polux you have had some great posts and I certainly learned some new information about some of the newer boats however the entry level boats are still the same polyester FG that has been used since the 60's except thinner laminates and the use of hull liners and other than electronics about the only thing new are the designs and the use of Plexus in places that used to be glassed. Our 2 boat builders added lots of good info as well, so hats off to them. Also enjoyed reading all the other posters info.

Thanks about the compliment but i have to say that even if I like you personally, sometimes you say things that simply are not true and that I know that if you thought a bit more over them you would say otherwise.

All new mass production boats, even entry ones use now a first layer of vinyl-ester resins to prevent blistering, they use cored hulls for improved stiffness and injection and infusion process to have lighter and as strong boats (Beneteau uses a hybrid process they call “Infujection”), the standard glass is now Eglass instead of Aglass. Jeanneau and Beneteau also developed a double molded hull that is bonded to the first to improve stifness. All this and better design provided boats as strong but much lighter and faster.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

I think Polux is providing plenty of evidence to back up his claims. If you want to back up yours, you need to do the same.

Really? November 2014 Hanse news, seems to me they are still doing real FG tabbing dude, read it please...
Hanse Yachts UK - New and Used Hanse Yachts in the UK and Ireland

I got my facts straight by the way..

Seems to me Hanse is taking the Arcona aproach regarding a keel rigging beam support, but in epoxy and fiberglass, and glassed of course.

[robert sailor]

The dusty boat guy wins again.....ha ha ha

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Really? November 2014 Hanse news, seems to me they are still doing real FG tabbing dude, read it please...
Hanse Yachts UK - New and Used Hanse Yachts in the UK and Ireland

I got my facts straight by the way..

Seems to me Hanse is taking the Arcona aproach regarding a keel rigging beam support, but in epoxy and fiberglass, and glassed of course.

That's good enough for me.

The Subframe! - The heart of a Hanses superb engineering.
1 November 2014

Hanse are well known for building extremely strong, modern sailing yachts but what is it that really sets them apart from the competition?

As you might imagine it is not just one thing but what is at the heart of a Hanse is a huge composite subframe.

A Hanse hull is built by hand which when strength is a priority is the only way. The hugely thick bulkheads are fully laminated to both the hull and the deck too. It takes more time than the common "floating" bulkhead approach but again is integral to the strength of the boat so has to be done.

The subframe itself is made from an epoxy based GRP construction and is very heavily engineered. Once laminated to the hull it is responsible for taking the keel and rig loads safely, ready for whatever the sea can throw at it.

Out on the water all the effort put into the build is obvious as they feel exceptionally stiff and strong, giving you the confidence to go anywhere.

But you'll notice that it doesn't mention bonding at all, when the other marketing material does. So, it looks like Hanse needs to do some copy clean-up in their marketing material.

Anyway, I just think anyone reading this thread should expect evidence to back up what's said. The "if I say it, it's true" thing doesn't work...for anyone.

So - thanks for the link.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Really? November 2014 Hanse news, seems to me they are still doing real FG tabbing dude, read it please...
Hanse Yachts UK - New and Used Hanse Yachts in the UK and Ireland

I got my facts straight by the way..
....

Really? I give you information taken from each boat Specification file and you take information from a generic advertise from Hanse? I have already said to you that regards only newly designed boats have them, that is a new thing and that most boats on Hanse, except the most recent designed ones, have yet laminated bulkheads. The more expensive line from Dehler made by Hanse has already in most boats on the line bonded bulkheads.

The last model, the Hanse 505 has the main bulkhead laminated and the others bonded. I thought you would at least see the specification files but it seems you prefer the advertising

Please be serious and look at the technical files (from Hanse and Dehler) and look at the information Hanse gives to the ones that test their boats (and that will look to see if they are laminated or not):
http://www.windcrafthanse.com/wp-con...e-505-spec.pdf
Boat Review: Hanse 505 | Sail Magazine
Hanse 505: Review and test | Sailing Today
https://www.dehler.com/media/documen...-41-274417.pdf

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Polux

Really? I give you information taken from each boat Specification file and you take information from a generic an advertise from Hanse? I have already said to you that regards only newly designed boats have them, that is a new thing and that most boats on Hanse, except the most recent designed ones, have yet laminated bulkheads. The more expensive line from Dehler made by Hanse has already in most boats on the line bonded bulkheads.

The last model, the Hanse 505 has the main bulkhead laminated and the others bonded. I thought you would at least see the specification files but it seems you prefer the advertising

Please be serious and look at the technical files (from Hanse and Dehler) and look at the information Hanse gives to the ones that test their boats (and that will look to see if they are laminated or not):
http://www.windcrafthanse.com/wp-con...e-505-spec.pdf
Boat Review: Hanse 505 | Sail Magazine
Hanse 505: Review and test | Sailing Today
https://www.dehler.com/media/documen...-41-274417.pdf

You see!! still on that?
Looks like embarrasing for you, think about it?

Hanse 505 specs.
- White hull
- Dark grey double waterlines
- Options for different hull colours according to Hanse colour selection
- Isophtalic gelcoat
- Vinylester for all outer laminates
- Balsa sandwich above waterline
- Polyester inner laminate (orthophtalic or DCPD)
- Main bulkhead laminated to hull and deck
- GRP strongback
- Horizontal Hull windows

Hanse 505,sail magazine review, and i dont want to be rude, i dont believe what they say it in this magazines reviews, its a fact..
Pure Marketing.
Construction
The 505’s hull is laid up by hand with a balsa core above the waterline to reduce weight and insulate the interior. Bulkheads are bonded to the hull sides and deck for increased stiffness and—MEANING FIBERGLASED. NO MATTER HOW THEY CALLED IN THE MAGAZINE.

as with the entire Hanse line—epoxy-based vinylester resins are included in the outer hull laminate for osmosis resistance. The boat’s deep T-keel keeps the ballast low and gives her a good, healthy righting moment. A high-aspect balanced spade rudder extends down almost to the keel foot for maximum bite in the water. A slightly shallower shoal-draft keel is also available

Hanse 505 Sailing today review say the same as the other magazine, good try, but wrong, Tabbed bulkheads, i told you this dudes can name bonded to anything atached to the boat no matter if is glue,duck tape or fg.


A Dehler is not a Hanse, again wrong, Waquiez i think is Groupe Beneteau and they are made diferent....for example.

Next?

[neilpride]

And againg from november 2014 Hanse news report.

News
The Subframe! - The heart of a Hanses superb engineering.
1 November 2014
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Hanse are well known for building extremely strong, modern sailing yachts but what is it that really sets them apart from the competition?

As you might imagine it is not just one thing but what is at the heart of a Hanse is a huge composite subframe.

A Hanse hull is built by hand which when strength is a priority is the only way. The hugely thick bulkheads are fully laminated to both the hull and the deck too. It takes more time than the common "floating" bulkhead approach but again is integral to the strength of the boat so has to be done.

The subframe itself is made from an epoxy based GRP construction and is very heavily engineered. Once laminated to the hull it is responsible for taking the keel and rig loads safely, ready for whatever the sea can throw at it.

Out on the water all the effort put into the build is obvious as they feel exceptionally stiff and strong, giving you the confidence to go anywhere.

[robert sailor]

Neil for god's sake take it easy on these guys, one's on the ropes the other is out on the mat....1,2,3,4.....