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Old 16-11-2014, 20:04   #1006
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Re: Rudder Failures

Polux,

No one is joking about Mark circumnavigating in a Beneteau. The post by another Mark was a joke and someone didn't get the joke. No one is making fun of anyone.

Let's get back to discussing boat construction...
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Old 16-11-2014, 20:35   #1007
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Re: Rudder Failures

Paulo - since neither robert nor Minaret will provide any evidence that cruising boats are still being built with through-bolted bulkheads and 1-1/2" glass, do you know of anyone out there doing this? I'm having a hard time finding anything.

I looked at Hylas and didn't see anything there. And I also looked at the IP site. They do list the following:

Quote:
Chainplates interlocked and bonded directly with hull structure for secure “belt-and-suspenders” installation.
And this...

Quote:
Deck laminate features Island Packet Yachts’ exclusive PolyCore®, virtually eliminating the potential for deck deterioration associated with other core materials. Includes a 10-year pro-rated limited warranty against deck core degradation or delamination, an industry exclusive.
No balsa.

Oh, and they use the grid bonded to the hull...like production boats...

Quote:
Structural Grid
Island Packets gain significant strength from the structural floor grid. The grid is molded with knitted fiberglass and resin and further reinforced with Polycore® and multiplemarine plywood stringers. This unit is designed and constructed to be an integral component of the hull when bonding is complete. In addition to adding structural integrity, the structural floor grid is the foundation on which the interior is constructed.

Lots of bonding going on.

At least they meet the same standard as a Hunter...

Quote:
CE Certified: All models meet or exceed the highest available independent rating – Category “A” – Ocean.
And even Hallberg Rassy seems to be coring hulls these days...

Quote:
Hull and Deck

Hand lay-up GRP hull, insulated with Divinycell closed cell PVC-foam against heat and cold, except in the keel area and high load areas which has solid laminate. Integrated rubbing strake with brass strip. Blue decorative band in gelcoat. Strong under floor reinforcements. Lead keel with reinforcement bolted on with thirteen S/S bolts. The rudder is carefully mounted for sensitive rudder feel. Strong engine foundations of GRP for effective sound insulation. Deck and coachroof areas and also cockpit are of sandwich construction, solid in parts, laminated to the hull.
No 1-1/2" glass there.

Those pesky bluewater boats! Where are they????
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Old 16-11-2014, 21:26   #1008
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Re: Rudder Failures

Just to be picky, Smack, how do you know that there is no 1 1/2 inch glass involved? All they said was that there was solid laminate in high load areas. Could be 1 1/2 inch, could be some other value, for it is not specified.

I suspect that you are correct but there is nothing in your quote to support your statement.

Jim
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Old 16-11-2014, 21:37   #1009
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Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

Those pesky cruisersforum posts! Where are they????
Just curious. After 14000 posts does the count start over again?

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Old 16-11-2014, 21:44   #1010
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Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Just to be picky, Smack, how do you know that there is no 1 1/2 inch glass involved? All they said was that there was solid laminate in high load areas. Could be 1 1/2 inch, could be some other value, for it is not specified.

I suspect that you are correct but there is nothing in your quote to support your statement.

Jim
You've got a point.

Actually, I went back and read Neil's post a bit more carefully. It was a 1-1/2" partition in that old Landfall.

Quote:
i mean vital structures in old boats are well glassed, a Landfall 42 , and this is a really old boat , have the chainplates troughbolted to a 1 inch and half partition fiberglassed all the way with a really thick laminate, rudder post is supported in the cockpit floor for example.
So, yeah, there might very well be 1-1/2" glass out there in new boats. I don't know. It would be interesting to see where it is.

Oh - and goat, we'll just have to see.
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Old 16-11-2014, 22:23   #1011
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Re: Rudder Failures

Some examples Smack.Lots of Fg here!!

HANSE...............

The bulkheads of all but the smallest yachts are laminated to the hull AND the deck. So Hanses are incredibly strong and solid and well-suited to tough ocean conditions. By Hanse Yachts.



AMEL....., The new 64. amazing boat...


CONSTRUCTION


Hull made from Roving 71 glass fibre + glass flakes with anti-osmosis barrier / isophthalic resin composite monolithic laminate, laid up by hand (application /

coating / air removal) in lengthwise and transverse layers with a two thirds overlap.





Upperworks insulation by macro acoustic closed cell foam,



Frame structure in polyurethane omega-foam and plywood, laminated to the hull, as is all the joinery structure (bulkheads, furniture units, lockers, etc.)



This system guarantees the highest rigidity of the whole unit and optimises load spread. Compression forces from the masts / rigging are compensated by a

structure of support pillars for the masts and chain plate tie-rods laminated to the hull for the rigging.





The bulkheads are glued and laminated with the deck. 6 of them are watertight collision bulkheads with isolation valves.



Moulded glass / resin balsa sandwich deck moulded by the same process as the hull (the deck is glued, bolted and laminated to the hull and the bulkheads).



The fore and aft bridge, foredeck and quarter deck are made from “Amel teak", moulded into the deck.



Self-bailing cockpit (100 mm diameter scuppers)



Cast iron ballast fixed to the hull / keel by stainless steel bolts, watertightness is performed with structural adhesive and polyurethane seal. The ballast is covered

by a polyester skin.





Monolithic laminate rudder with skeg made from monolithic composite, moulded in one piece with the hull. The rudder is mounted at 3 points, the rudder trunk is

laminated and the intermediate fitting and socket are stainless steel. 70 mm stainless steel rudder stock.





Dual circuit hydraulic wheel steering.
The transom opens fully with the dinghy launching platform by hydraulic control.





Hallberg Rassy. Grid and bulkheads laminated, even they laminate the hull to deck joint from inside, now you see why some posters ask why they are so expensive.

The list is endless..
Allen.
Baltic.
Cabo Rico.
Hylas.
Najad.
Malo.
Oyster.
Moody.
Southerly yachts.
Swan.
etc.etc.etc.etc.....

In all this brands, rudder trunks, bulkheads, grids, stringers, and vital structure components are glassed... just for a start....
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Old 17-11-2014, 01:01   #1012
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Re: Rudder Failures

OK Smack, you gave it a try but that's what happens when your best source is Google, I'll carry a little water for you.
Here is a picture of bulkheads and knees glassed and though bolted. What you are looking at is a knee and in the background you will see one of the larger bulkheads, take a close look and you will see both of them are glassed/tabbed and through bolted. Today with light weight composite bulkheads and the use of epoxy rather than polyester to bond them it doesn't get much better. Entry level production boats can not spend this much time on material and labor and there is nothing wrong with that. Most of us understand that today's cheaper production boats simply have a much shorter lifespan and from time to time may have catastrophic failures. There is no magic involved here, you spend less money and you buy cheaper goods. Cheaper goods are not as good and don't last as long. You have spent hours trying to convince yourself that this rule doesn't apply in your case unfortunately it does. This rule is just as applicable on some older boats. Many of these boats were the entry level production boats of their day.
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Old 17-11-2014, 03:24   #1013
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Re: Rudder Failures

This is the description from the owners manual...

Hull, deck gear & below decks
Hull
Glass Reinforced Plastic (GRP) is used throughout the construction of the hull and
decks. Hull stiffening is achieved using balsa or foam stiffeners moulded to the
inside of the hull and by the fitting of bulkheads. Each bulkhead is bonded in
position using GRP and then further secured with bolts through the GRP bonding.
An inner GRP floor also adds to the strength and stability of the hull. Extra
strengthening is also applied to the keel attachment area in order to withstand the
loads imposed on the keel. Deck areas are surfaced with an integrally moulded non
slip finish.

I Goggled this so its not that hard to find. I doubt the latest boats use this method as it is time consuming plus with higher tech materials and epoxy there isn't the need. And yes the bulkheads that carry the rigging loads are close to 1-1/2" thick, as they are 3/4" marine plywood fully encapsulated in 6 layers of heavy glass that is close to another 3/4 of an inch thick.

The picture I posted shows the knee, that's the upper part and you can only see the bottom of it, the lower area with the notch cut out is where furniture is mounted and even there they tabbed and through bolted. The entire boat is built that way but hey nothing is bomb proof, anything can fail in the right circumstances but it sure helps when the **** hits the fan to know you are in something that was built using the best methods available at the time.
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Old 17-11-2014, 04:53   #1014
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Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
Polux,

No one is joking about Mark circumnavigating in a Beneteau. The post by another Mark was a joke and someone didn't get the joke. No one is making fun of anyone.

Let's get back to discussing boat construction...
sorry about that. It is difficult to understand what is a joke and what is being ironic in internet. anyway by a subsequent post it seemed to me that most didn't knew of what I was talking about an who was Mark (that Mark).
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Old 17-11-2014, 06:27   #1015
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Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Paulo - since neither robert nor Minaret will provide any evidence that cruising boats are still being built with through-bolted bulkheads and 1-1/2" glass, do you know of anyone out there doing this? I'm having a hard time finding anything...
No balsa.
Oh, and they use the grid bonded to the hull...like production boats...
Lots of bonding going on.
At least they meet the same standard as a Hunter...
And even Hallberg Rassy seems to be coring hulls these days...
....
Those pesky bluewater boats! Where are they????
Smack, I am out of this thread. I believe that all already have understood that like in airplanes, cars and buildings the use of bonding is increasing and that the potential of the system is far from having reached its limit, with a intensive research going on and new bonding agents being developed.

That does not mean that it is s superior or inferior method regarding lamination, at least on this phase of the development. It seems to have advantages and disadvantages being mostly the disadvantages not knowing exactly how the product is going to hold 40 years from know. Beneteau is using that for 20 years so it seems that for that time span there is no problem but the use of new materials, even if on the whole picture represent a benefit, have always some risks. As I have said the way laminated is done and the choice of the right material for bonding and the way it is done is probably more important then using a material or another.

The development of new materials and techniques is so big that some NA cabinets have a specialist on this field (composite materials, bonding agents, core materials, resins, carbon), teaming with a structural engineer, CFD/VPP specialist and yacht designers (for the interior and the exterior). The NA is more and more a Project manager and the one that leads the general direction to follow a program. Boats are not anymore designed by a NA that leaved most of the building to the yard guys that just do what they knew, based on passed experiences and using the same materials and techniques that were used for decades.

Some boats still are designed and built like that but that is not the norm anymore, even on small companies.

Have a look at the last post on my blog about Mylius, a small company that started just some years ago and that had a huge success even if they were on it more for the fun then for the money. I am not talking about the type of boats they make, that kind of approach could have been done in any type of boat, it is just the clients for that type of boat that are less conservative and make easier the acceptance of state of the art techs and materials:

MYLIUS Yacht
MYLIUS Yacht
MYLIUS Yacht

Two years ago I heard one of the men of Comar saying: after all carbon is not that expensive, with the right installations...and he was not talking about
big yachts (that they make already in Carbon) but about smaller performance cruisers. Big yachts that some years ago were made of aluminium are now increasingly made of Carbon and we have just to wait some more years for carbon to be used on middle sized sailboats of good quality at no prohibitive prices

For many years sailors had the idea that carbon boats did not last long but today we have shipyards with plenty of old carbon ocean racers without knowing what to do with them. They are obsolete but after many circumnavigations are ready for more. On the route du Rhum we have Anne leading the Rhum class with a junkyard trimaran, a boat made with pieces and bits of 20 year old racing boats that were on the junkyard. She passed that big storm with no problem and it gives me pleasure to see a great sailor winning with a cheap boat made that way, on a race that has many of the best world's racing boats competing. That and sir Robin with his 75 years on his old carbon racing boat still going strong and going up on the classification.

The point is that carbon is strong, it lasts for long and it will be used a lot more on the building of cruising boats. Mass production builders are already using it to strength some structural parts of the boat. Fact is that boat building is not today like it was 30 years ago and many techniques and materials used 20 years ago on race or very expensive boats are used today on cruising boats and that evolution of techniques and materials is not diminishing but increasing exponentially.

Look at how Dehler are built and compare it with the way a mass produced boat was built 30 years ago:
The Dehler Manufacturing Process - Quality Comes First
Since they come into Hanse group they have been lowering their prices regarding competition not really for the use of lower quality materials but by the way they are built:

"Design and implementation of new yachts in HanseYachts AG is assumed by Watervision, our in-house development department. Watervision cooperates closely with the most eminent of designers and engineers in the world. In terms of this, the common application of CATIA v5-Software forms the basis for quick and error-free implementation of a yacht into readiness for commencement of series production. CATIA (Computer Aided Three-Dimensional Interactive Application) checks the compatibility of all construction elements and, among other things, controls the in-built 5-axis milling machine for making models and prototypes. The design programme from the French Dassault Systèmes was developed for the aircraft industry and has become established in many fields.
CATIA allows for application of already existing construction components from other models (modules), which saves on development time and costs. The close cooperation of all those participating in a design and CATIA software not only shortens the time required for new developments, but also allows for optimisation of existing types of yachts in the shortest possible time without interrupting the flow of series production.
...
Business objectives:
Cost-efficiency
Zero error tolerance ...
through standardized processes"


https://www.hansegroup.com/gb/home/c.../strategy.html

They are building boats like cars, with very expensive robotic PC guided technology and like cars, the quality of a car today is far better than 30 years ago with building defaults much less probable through a better overall control. It is not only Hanse that is working like that, all brands that want to make low cost good quality boats have to work like this. That's the only way of offering a good product at a competitive price but that also means a competitive shipyard has to have an initial massive investment to be competitive.

A long way from the yards of the past.

To all that participated on this thread a big thanks. It was fun and instructive.
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Old 17-11-2014, 06:33   #1016
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Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Smack, I am out of this thread. I believe that all already have understood that like in airplanes, cars and buildings the use of bonding is increasing and that the potential of the system is far from having reached its limit, with a intensive research going on and new bonding agents being developed.

That does not mean that it is s superior or inferior method regarding lamination, at least on this phase of the development. It seems to have advantages and disadvantages being mostly the disadvantages not knowing exactly how the product is going to hold 40 years from know. Beneteau is using that for 20 years so it seems that for that time span there is no problem but the use of new materials, even if on the whole picture represent a benefit, have always some risks. As I have said the way laminated is done and the choice of the right material for bonding and the way it is done is probably more important then using a material or another.

The development of new materials and techniques is so big that some NA cabinets have a specialist on this field (composite materials, bonding agents, core materials, resins, carbon), teaming with a structural engineer, CFD/VPP specialist and yacht designers (for the interior and the exterior). The NA is more and more a Project manager and the one that leads the general direction to follow a program. Boats are not anymore designed by a NA that leaved most of the building to the yard guys that just do what they knew, based on passed experiences and using the same materials and techniques that were used for decades.

Some boats still are designed and built like that but that is not the norm anymore, even on small companies.

Have a look at the last post on my blog about Mylius, a small company that started just some years ago and that had a huge success even if they were on it more for the fun then for the money. I am not talking about the type of boats they make, that kind of approach could have been done in any type of boat, it is just the clients for that type of boat that are less conservative and make easier the acceptance of state of the art techs and materials:

MYLIUS Yacht
MYLIUS Yacht
MYLIUS Yacht

Two years ago I heard one of the men of Comar saying: after all carbon is not that expensive, with the right installations...and he was not talking about
big yachts (that they make already in Carbon) but about smaller performance cruisers. Big yachts that some years ago were made of aluminium are now increasingly made of Carbon and we have just to wait some more years for carbon to be used on middle sized sailboats of good quality at no prohibitive prices

For many years sailors had the idea that carbon boats did not last long but today we have shipyards with plenty of old carbon ocean racers without knowing what to do with them. They are obsolete but after many circumnavigations are ready for more. On the route du Rhum we have Anne leading the Rhum class with a junkyard trimaran, a boat made with pieces and bits of 20 year old racing boats that were on the junkyard. She passed that big storm with no problem and it gives me pleasure to see a great sailor winning with a cheap boat made that way, on a race that has many of the best world's racing boats competing. That and sir Robin with his 75 years on his old carbon racing boat still going strong and going up on the classification.

The point is that carbon is strong, it lasts for long and it will be used a lot more on the building of cruising boats. Mass production builders are already using it to strength some structural parts of the boat. Fact is that boat building is not today like it was 30 years ago and many techniques and materials used 20 years ago on race or very expensive boats are used today on cruising boats and that evolution of techniques and materials is not diminishing but increasing exponentially.

Look at how Dehler are built and compare it with the way a mass produced boat was built 30 years ago:
The Dehler Manufacturing Process - Quality Comes First
Since they come into Hanse group they have been lowering their prices regarding competition not really for the use of lower quality materials but by the way they are built:

"Design and implementation of new yachts in HanseYachts AG is assumed by Watervision, our in-house development department. Watervision cooperates closely with the most eminent of designers and engineers in the world. In terms of this, the common application of CATIA v5-Software forms the basis for quick and error-free implementation of a yacht into readiness for commencement of series production. CATIA (Computer Aided Three-Dimensional Interactive Application) checks the compatibility of all construction elements and, among other things, controls the in-built 5-axis milling machine for making models and prototypes. The design programme from the French Dassault Systèmes was developed for the aircraft industry and has become established in many fields.
CATIA allows for application of already existing construction components from other models (modules), which saves on development time and costs. The close cooperation of all those participating in a design and CATIA software not only shortens the time required for new developments, but also allows for optimisation of existing types of yachts in the shortest possible time without interrupting the flow of series production.
...
Business objectives:
Cost-efficiency
Zero error tolerance ...
through standardized processes"

https://www.hansegroup.com/gb/home/c.../strategy.html

They are building boats like cars, with very expensive robotic PC guided technology and like cars, the quality of a car today is far better than 30 years ago with building defaults much less probable through a better overall control. It is not only Hanse that is working like that, all brands that want to make low cost good quality boats have to work like this. That's the only way of offering a good product at a competitive price but that also means a competitive shipyard has to have an initial massive investment to be competitive.

A long way from the yards of the past.

To all that participated on this thread a big thanks. It was fun and instructive.

Thx Paulo, this is probably your best post and some points make a lot of sense...
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Old 17-11-2014, 06:46   #1017
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Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
..
HANSE...............

The bulkheads of all but the smallest yachts are laminated to the hull AND the deck. So Hanses are incredibly strong and solid and well-suited to tough ocean conditions. By Hanse Yachts.
...
That was in the past. As I have said the use of bonding is increasing:

" the bulkheads of a Hanse are structurally bonded to the hull which provides greatly improved strength and stiffness"
http://www.hanseyachts.co.uk/pdf/2013-04-10_085540.pdf

Only the main bulkheads are laminated on the Hanse, like on Bavaria.

(I couldn't resist)
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Old 17-11-2014, 07:04   #1018
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Re: Rudder Failures

Im sorry Paulo but i disagre, Hanse laminate all the bulkheads , the only bulkhead glassed to the deck is the main bulkhead i think this is your point, or at least this is what they say in the oficial website , brochures. And i guess is updated..

Maybe you have a link or picture, we have a Hanse in the boatyard maybe worth to ask the owner, by the way the Hanse Factory tour, showing bulkheads laminated to the hull, if is the latest or not, i dont know.

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Old 17-11-2014, 08:16   #1019
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Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Some examples Smack.Lots of Fg here!!

HANSE...............

The bulkheads of all but the smallest yachts are laminated to the hull AND the deck. So Hanses are incredibly strong and solid and well-suited to tough ocean conditions. By Hanse Yachts.



AMEL....., The new 64. amazing boat...


CONSTRUCTION


Hull made from Roving 71 glass fibre + glass flakes with anti-osmosis barrier / isophthalic resin composite monolithic laminate, laid up by hand (application /

coating / air removal) in lengthwise and transverse layers with a two thirds overlap.





Upperworks insulation by macro acoustic closed cell foam,



Frame structure in polyurethane omega-foam and plywood, laminated to the hull, as is all the joinery structure (bulkheads, furniture units, lockers, etc.)



This system guarantees the highest rigidity of the whole unit and optimises load spread. Compression forces from the masts / rigging are compensated by a

structure of support pillars for the masts and chain plate tie-rods laminated to the hull for the rigging.





The bulkheads are glued and laminated with the deck. 6 of them are watertight collision bulkheads with isolation valves.



Moulded glass / resin balsa sandwich deck moulded by the same process as the hull (the deck is glued, bolted and laminated to the hull and the bulkheads).



The fore and aft bridge, foredeck and quarter deck are made from “Amel teak", moulded into the deck.



Self-bailing cockpit (100 mm diameter scuppers)



Cast iron ballast fixed to the hull / keel by stainless steel bolts, watertightness is performed with structural adhesive and polyurethane seal. The ballast is covered

by a polyester skin.





Monolithic laminate rudder with skeg made from monolithic composite, moulded in one piece with the hull. The rudder is mounted at 3 points, the rudder trunk is

laminated and the intermediate fitting and socket are stainless steel. 70 mm stainless steel rudder stock.





Dual circuit hydraulic wheel steering.
The transom opens fully with the dinghy launching platform by hydraulic control.





Hallberg Rassy. Grid and bulkheads laminated, even they laminate the hull to deck joint from inside, now you see why some posters ask why they are so expensive.

The list is endless..
Allen.
Baltic.
Cabo Rico.
Hylas.
Najad.
Malo.
Oyster.
Moody.
Southerly yachts.
Swan.
etc.etc.etc.etc.....

In all this brands, rudder trunks, bulkheads, grids, stringers, and vital structure components are glassed... just for a start....
How many of those bulkheads are through-bolted? That was the question.
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Old 17-11-2014, 08:17   #1020
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Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
OK Smack, you gave it a try but that's what happens when your best source is Google, I'll carry a little water for you.
Here is a picture of bulkheads and knees glassed and though bolted. What you are looking at is a knee and in the background you will see one of the larger bulkheads, take a close look and you will see both of them are glassed/tabbed and through bolted. Today with light weight composite bulkheads and the use of epoxy rather than polyester to bond them it doesn't get much better. Entry level production boats can not spend this much time on material and labor and there is nothing wrong with that. Most of us understand that today's cheaper production boats simply have a much shorter lifespan and from time to time may have catastrophic failures. There is no magic involved here, you spend less money and you buy cheaper goods. Cheaper goods are not as good and don't last as long. You have spent hours trying to convince yourself that this rule doesn't apply in your case unfortunately it does. This rule is just as applicable on some older boats. Many of these boats were the entry level production boats of their day.
That's a nice picture. What boat is that and when was it built?
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