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Old 15-11-2014, 16:17   #946
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Re: Rudder Failures

I found this an interesting read in to the boat market both in Europe and North America. What stood out was that although European boats sell in NA, NA boats do not in Europe, and they outline the reasons why.

Also, a discussion on used boats as well was informative. It looks like the Europeans are getting even more regulation that will add costs.

ISSUU - Yacht sales market report 2014 by Berthon Boat Company Ltd
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Old 15-11-2014, 18:10   #947
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
I found this an interesting read in to the boat market both in Europe and North America. What stood out was that although European boats sell in NA, NA boats do not in Europe, and they outline the reasons why.

Also, a discussion on used boats as well was informative. It looks like the Europeans are getting even more regulation that will add costs.

ISSUU - Yacht sales market report 2014 by Berthon Boat Company Ltd
Thanks that was an interesting read, but I believe you have not understand what they are talking about regarding difficulties (for them) in what regarding selling American boats in Europe. They are talking about PCA (post construction assessment) that has nothing with American shipyards selling boats on EC through European dealers but only with boats that are not CE certified by the manufacturers. (pag 22)

They are not talking about problems for the shipyards that have their boats certified but for Brokers that want to sell old used boats not certified on Europe or want to buy American non certified boats from small shipyards to sell them in Europe (motor boats). The American boats regarding the RCD are certified by the manufacturers exactly the same way the European manufacturers do: The boats have to pass the same requirements to be approved in one of the several classes.

Seeing in this the reason why European boats are more sold (and have factories on the US) than American boats in Europe makes not any sense. Why does not Hunter or Catalina have factories in Europe?

You have no idea of how many sail boat manufacturers are in Europe compared with the US or the huge disproportion of the sailboats sold in Europe and on the US. The truth is that Americans in what regards pleasure crafts buy much more motorboats in proportion to sailboats than the Europeans and sailing is just much bigger in Europe in all aspects, from the business to the number of sailboats, passing by the number of sailors and the importance that sail and sail racing have on the media.

Regarding the information on that document, I find specially interesting the one regarding the 2014 yachts to be incomparably better than the ones from 2008 (pag 14), an interesting statement since they deal essentially in used boats even if they deal with some new boats, mostly motorboats. They were talking about price and boat value. Also very interesting what is said regarding performance cruisers and the increasing number of sailors that are looking for "sparkling performance as well as comfort! I mean this:



Also could not agree more with what they say regarding the evolution of bluewater boats, sector where they are specialists and also with what they say about mass production boats:



Finally it seems we agree on something These guys clearly know a lot about sailboats, the market and know of what they are talking about.
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Old 15-11-2014, 19:55   #948
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Thanks that was an interesting read, but I believe you have not understand what they are talking about regarding difficulties (for them) in what regarding selling American boats in Europe. They are talking about PCA (post construction assessment) that has nothing with American shipyards selling boats on EC through European dealers but only with boats that are not CE certified by the manufacturers. (pag 22)
Actually, I did read and understood it.

Quote:
Seeing in this the reason why European boats are more sold (and have factories on the US) than American boats in Europe makes not any sense. Why does not Hunter or Catalina have factories in Europe?

As this article indicates, Hunter did have a factory in England, but closed it down. They mention their reasons, and reading it, I wonder why Hunter did not redesign their boats that were built there for European expectations.

U.S. sailboats a tough sell in the E.U. | Soundings Online

One comment I was a bit surprised to see is that Brits have a high incidence of boats that have bilge keels. I thought that had fallen by the wayside a bit.
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Old 15-11-2014, 20:32   #949
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Re: Rudder Failures

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One comment I was a bit surprised to see is that Brits have a high incidence of boats that have bilge keels. I thought that had fallen by the wayside a bit.
GB has lots of drying harbours where boats sit upon the bottom regularly. Thus the interest in bilge keels...

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Old 16-11-2014, 01:07   #950
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Thats is all irrelevant. I am not talking about particular cases. As on cars the best and more advanced cars of each generation are preserved and in many cases they have a value superior to new cars. We are talking about o,ooo1% of all the cars, and it will happen the same with the boats. They will be ditched by the same reason cars are, obsolescence and because it is cheaper to buy a better used boat then recover a worse older boat. I am talking in generic therms.

Besides, as I was saying it is already happening, lots of boats nobody want and that is already an ecologic problem:

"Nearly 5,000 recreational boats are retired and disposed of every year in Norway- either sunk to the bottom of the sea or burned in a bonfire. Now, researchers have developed a new method for recycling these vessels."
Shipwrecks no more: Recycling old boats -- ScienceDaily

"The company, a Tampa, Fla.-based fiberglass waste recycling business, said in a news release that it has identified more than 100 acres of land in west central Florida for a fiberglass boat recycling operation. The property's owner has agreed to make the land available in conjunction with a third entity equipped with barges and other equipment required to raise the boats. The U.S. Coast Guard estimates that 9,000 boats lie in the shallow waters of the Gulf of Mexico....American Fiber processes fiberglass and recycles it into new products. Florida, like many states, faces numerous boats left abandoned on water and land. Many states have funds specifically for abandoned boat programs."

American Fiber Nears Abandoned Boat Recycling Venture | Plastics content from Waste360

Maybe I notice that more than you because in Europe we like more modern boats, buy more new ones and ditch old ones earlier. If you go to Greece or Turkey, as you have been and go to any port or marina, you will see lots of abandoned boats, or boats just getting older with old signs of "to sell", boats that nobody wants.
Some interesting information, thanks.
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Old 16-11-2014, 05:58   #951
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Re: Rudder Failures

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....
As this article indicates, Hunter did have a factory in England, but closed it down. They mention their reasons, and reading it, I wonder why Hunter did not redesign their boats that were built there for European expectations.
U.S. sailboats a tough sell in the E.U. | Soundings Online...[/QUOTE]

Yes that is rather odd since the sailboats that the Americans buy more (and like more) are not Hunter or Catalina but Beneteau and Jeanneau that are made with identical specifications than the European ones.

That is a 6 year's old article and probably a bit outdated but I find somethings said there to be true even if they are rapidly disappearing:

Europeans value more good design, high technologies, higher specs, faster boats while the Americans are more conservative than Europeans and like more the "good old boats" that explains also why the Americans spend more money recovering old outdated boats while the Europeans prefer to buy new state of the art boats.
Also American boats that are state of the Art, like the Jboats or Corsair are more popular in Europe (in what regards cruising) than on the states. Some performance Jcruisers, even if American designed (the interior is European designed) are built only in Europe and if you want to buy one on the US you have to import it from Europe. I never understood why there is not a market for the J122 on the US: beautiful boat and great performance cruiser. On my blog you have a post about it.

"The list of top sailboat brands does not include a U.S. yard, with more U.S. strikeouts in the categories of reliability, quality, service, price/value and appearance. As the only U.S. brand mentioned in the survey, J/Boats got seventh in the list of “modern and progressive boats” and second in “sport boats.”....
“Europeans put more emphasis on design and style, while Americans are more interested in comfortable interiors,” he explains, pointing out that Hunter has retained a European design firm to assist with styling. “...
“There is a higher percentage of adults who race dinghies,” says Jeff Johnstone, who heads Newport, R.I.-based J/Boats, which builds in France. “And for them it is a natural progression to step into a performance keelboat as they get older.”..
Europeans love the cult of mobility — sleek, fast and well-engineered cars that are sinfully expensive but nice to look at and fun to drive,” he says. “Some of this spills over to pleasure boats, and from my perspective it seems that U.S. manufacturers are not always grasping the particular and varied tastes of European customers.
The consensus among experts in Düsseldorf was that even a more favorable exchange rate on the dollar won’t trigger a sudden U.S. invasion of the European production sailboat market."
...


It seems to me that comparison with cars is right on the spot.
Regarding American costumers preferring comfort to style and design I guess that the author of the article being American didn't understand that for an European a badly designed/styled interior would never be comfortable. Comfort regards not only to have a nice seat, space and functionality but in being on an interior where one feels well. Most Europeans simply will not feel well inside a badly designed/styled interior for much functional that it can be. An interior can be comfortable/functional and also well designed/styled.

But things are changing and Americans are enjoying more and more the European perspective on boats and well designed/styled interiors. Has I have said, the boats more sold on US are European boats, without any modifications regarding the US taste and boats with a very modern styled/designed interior, like the Oceanis 38 are having a huge success on the US.
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Old 16-11-2014, 06:05   #952
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Re: Rudder Failures

I don't understand all this focus on handholds - it's not like one is going to sail leaned over. Also, what is all this about climbing up and down ladders?

Neither of these are desirable features for blue water sailing…

Regarding fiberglass tabbing of bulkheads - I have been on many older "blue water" boats, and have read many blogs of people buying older "blue water" boats, and have many friends with older "blue water" boats, and a very large number of these older "blue water" boats have broken bulkhead tabbing. I have owned an older "blue water" boat, and it had broken tabbing.

I bet broken tabbing is one of the most common things surveyors see in older "blue water" boats. It certainly seems to be one of the most common things people repair on older "blue water" boats.

Even neilpride said he sees a lot of broken fiberglass tabbing.

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Old 16-11-2014, 08:29   #953
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I don't understand all this focus on handholds - it's not like one is going to sail leaned over. Also, what is all this about climbing up and down ladders?

Neither of these are desirable features for blue water sailing…

Regarding fiberglass tabbing of bulkheads - I have been on many older "blue water" boats, and have read many blogs of people buying older "blue water" boats, and have many friends with older "blue water" boats, and a very large number of these older "blue water" boats have broken bulkhead tabbing. I have owned an older "blue water" boat, and it had broken tabbing.

I bet broken tabbing is one of the most common things surveyors see in older "blue water" boats. It certainly seems to be one of the most common things people repair on older "blue water" boats.

Even neilpride said he sees a lot of broken fiberglass tabbing.

Mark
Handholds apart, i agree with what you say regarding tabbing on bulkheads, except 2 points, most Fg tabbing broken i see since im sailing is not definitive to have a bad failure, since the old boats are made diferent with bulkheads glassed from the bottom to the sides and even in some boats to the deck to and with enough glassed stringers and beams supports , i see some C&C`s with unbonded FG tabbing in the salón main bulkhead due wáter standing in the bilge for years , rotten bottom bulkheads with Fg unbonded, but never i hear of a C&c going to the bottom of the sea by a broken bulkhead, i mean vital structures in old boats are well glassed, a Landfall 42 , and this is a really old boat , have the chainplates troughbolted to a 1 inch and half partition fiberglassed all the way with a really thick laminate, rudder post is supported in the cockpit floor for example.

Old IOR boats have some bulkheads isues like a Choate 40 i see long time ago, or a CAL 39 with clasic bulkhead problems, im not a big fan of Plywood used for bulkheads, first of all tapering the edges in the bottom of a py buklhead is necesary to get a good mechanical bond and not many builders do that.

And later you have the last kind of bulkhead setup, glassed and troughbolted , a bulletproof bond ...

This thread is dead for me, finito, no more plexus debate to me, anyone can take their conclusions , i think there is enough debate and proofs about how to do it well or how to do it wrong, you dont need to be a NA or a Brand X in house CEO NA to see if is bad or its good, there is lots of fórums in the net arguing the same isue, if there is a point to argue its because something is going on....

This is not referred to the posters in this fórum but stubborn noobs cant understand nothing , is like to have a talk with a Wall, they use many muscles tryng to defend a point but they forget to use the most important muscle ..

Im learning everyday besides im going to be in the sailing scenario for 27 years , i take advices seriously and i ear opinions with consideration, thats how you can get a cosntructive debate, personal egos and feelings because you own Brand x or Brand H is no sense , deal with that , you own it..
I own a CSY 44, the boat have lots of cons, i know, and when people tell me this or that kind of negative aspects about the boat no matter how bad i feel i recognize ..

Some posters and members deal each day with boat problems, they can give you excelent advice based in personal experiences , and this is for me the deal, or you have posters like Smack , it come around with a baseball stick banging your head many times trying to get a Ok based on knocking numbers...

Overall a good topic after all. Ciao...
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Old 16-11-2014, 08:39   #954
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I don't understand all this focus on handholds - it's not like one is going to sail leaned over. Also, what is all this about climbing up and down ladders?

Neither of these are desirable features for blue water sailing…

Regarding fiberglass tabbing of bulkheads - I have been on many older "blue water" boats, and have read many blogs of people buying older "blue water" boats, and have many friends with older "blue water" boats, and a very large number of these older "blue water" boats have broken bulkhead tabbing. I have owned an older "blue water" boat, and it had broken tabbing.

I bet broken tabbing is one of the most common things surveyors see in older "blue water" boats. It certainly seems to be one of the most common things people repair on older "blue water" boats.

Even neilpride said he sees a lot of broken fiberglass tabbing.

Mark
I'm assuming you are joking, right? Tabbing on well built older boats is so far down the list its not worth talking about. Wet decks,corroded electrical,poorly installed batteries,corroded fuel and water tanks,keel bolts,chain plates,rudder issues and blistering are the more common issues. Well built older boats by and large have few problems with tabbing, I'm not saying it can't happen but its just not as common as you are trying to suggest.
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Old 16-11-2014, 08:44   #955
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Handholds apart, i agree with what you say regarding tabbing on bulkheads, except 2 points, most Fg tabbing broken i see since im sailing is not definitive to have a bad failure, since the old boats are made diferent with bulkheads glassed from the bottom to the sides and even in some boats to the deck to and with enough glassed stringers and beams supports , i see some C&C`s with unbonded FG tabbing in the salón main bulkhead due wáter standing in the bilge for years , rotten bottom bulkheads with Fg unbonded, but never i hear of a C&c going to the bottom of the sea by a broken bulkhead, i mean vital structures in old boats are well glassed, a Landfall 42 , and this is a really old boat , have the chainplates troughbolted to a 1 inch and half partition fiberglassed all the way with a really thick laminate, rudder post is supported in the cockpit floor for example.

Old IOR boats have some bulkheads isues like a Choate 40 i see long time ago, or a CAL 39 with clasic bulkhead problems, im not a big fan of Plywood used for bulkheads, first of all tapering the edges in the bottom of a py buklhead is necesary to get a good mechanical bond and not many builders do that.

And later you have the last kind of bulkhead setup, glassed and troughbolted , a bulletproof bond ...

This thread is dead for me, finito, no more plexus debate to me, anyone can take their conclusions , i think there is enough debate and proofs about how to do it well or how to do it wrong, you dont need to be a NA or a Brand X in house CEO NA to see if is bad or its good, there is lots of fórums in the net arguing the same isue, if there is a point to argue its because something is going on....

This is not referred to the posters in this fórum but stubborn noobs cant understand nothing , is like to have a talk with a Wall, they use many muscles tryng to defend a point but they forget to use the most important muscle ..

Im learning everyday besides im going to be in the sailing scenario for 27 years , i take advices seriously and i ear opinions with consideration, thats how you can get a cosntructive debate, personal egos and feelings because you own Brand x or Brand H is no sense , deal with that , you own it..
I own a CSY 44, the boat have lots of cons, i know, and when people tell me this or that kind of negative aspects about the boat no matter how bad i feel i recognize ..

Some posters and members deal each day with boat problems, they can give you excelent advice based in personal experiences , and this is for me the deal, or you have posters like Smack , it come around with a baseball stick banging your head many times trying to get a Ok based on knocking numbers...

Overall a good topic after all. Ciao...
Well sorry to see you go on this one but I understand your feelings, you know the old saying about "taking a horse to water but unable to make him drink"? That only leaves one other experienced builder and if he goes its pretty much over.
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Old 16-11-2014, 08:49   #956
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Re: Rudder Failures

Thx Robert, im around , this is a good topic ....
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Old 16-11-2014, 09:16   #957
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Re: Rudder Failures

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I'm assuming you are joking, right? Tabbing on well built older boats is so far down the list its not worth talking about. Wet decks,corroded electrical,poorly installed batteries,corroded fuel and water tanks,keel bolts,chain plates,rudder issues and blistering are the more common issues. Well built older boats by and large have few problems with tabbing, I'm not saying it can't happen but its just not as common as you are trying to suggest.
I agree. I have never experienced failed (edit *bulkhead) tabbing on any boat and I have been on some major junk piles. I have seen plenty of bulkhead rot though.
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Old 16-11-2014, 09:38   #958
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Regarding fiberglass tabbing of bulkheads - I have been on many older "blue water" boats, and have read many blogs of people buying older "blue water" boats, and have many friends with older "blue water" boats, and a very large number of these older "blue water" boats have broken bulkhead tabbing. I have owned an older "blue water" boat, and it had broken tabbing.

I bet broken tabbing is one of the most common things surveyors see in older "blue water" boats. It certainly seems to be one of the most common things people repair on older "blue water" boats.

Even neilpride said he sees a lot of broken fiberglass tabbing.
Oh boy, this changes the debate a bit now doesn't it?

Neil, where are those pics buddy? Minaret, if it's this common, I'm sure you have some too?
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Old 16-11-2014, 09:41   #959
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Oh boy, this changes the debate a bit now doesn't it?

Neil, where are those pics buddy? Minaret, if it's this common, I'm sure you have some too?

I think is colemj who need to post those pics if he want? not me dude!!!!
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Old 16-11-2014, 09:55   #960
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Re: Rudder Failures

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i mean vital structures in old boats are well glassed, a Landfall 42 , and this is a really old boat , have the chainplates troughbolted to a 1 inch and half partition fiberglassed all the way with a really thick laminate, rudder post is supported in the cockpit floor for example.

And later you have the last kind of bulkhead setup, glassed and troughbolted , a bulletproof bond ...

This thread is dead for me, finito, no more plexus debate to me, anyone can take their conclusions , i think there is enough debate and proofs about how to do it well or how to do it wrong, you dont need to be a NA or a Brand X in house CEO NA to see if is bad or its good
I think this debate is actually about exactly that. What exactly is "doing it well"?
Is is the old glassed and throughbolted method? Is it using 1-1/2" of glass?

If so, is there ANY new boat out there doing this anymore? And if not, you have to ask why.

Then, as for the newb boat buyer, he or she has to decide whose advice to go with. Buy an old boat that has these things (along with a boatload of other old-boat problems) - or buy newer trusting the ratio of successes to failures out there in these boats.
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